How Long Will The Maple Leafs' Window Be Open?
So a couple of days ago, after watching yet another Leafs loss in 86" of gory glory, I caught myself briefly agreeing with people that think making a trade of one of our young D men makes sense going forward. Luke Schenn, Keith Aulie, and Jake Gardiner had all made significant gaffes in the loss to the Panthers, and while the goaltending didn't help, I kept asking myself - are we really prepared to wait for these kids to develop into reliable D men?
The reason this jumped to the forefront is actually not a result of their defensive play at all, but more the play we're witnessing out of Phil Kessel, his linemate Joffrey Lupul, and the likes of Tyler Bozak, Mikhail Grabovski, Clarke MacArthur, Tim Connolly, and to a lesser extent Nikolai Kulemin (who is in the midst of a definite down year).
What pray tell do our young D-men have to do with our top 6 forwards? Well you see the question we have here is one of windows. When do they open for business, when are they closed, and how long can we keep them open to fit as many talented players into the organization as possible.
To this end I began with a premise around goal scorers - largely on the basis of the idea that goal scorers peak fairly early in their careers. I know work has been done on this in the past, but I felt like crunching the numbers myself to see if I could break it down a bit more in terms of "similarity" amongst players - as a means of identifying who we can look for the Leafs forwards to parallel after a fashion, career wise.
So with that idea in mind, I collected the career data for all players to register a 30+ goal season in the last 20 years of NHL hockey. There are 219 names on that list, and while I won't list them all off, what I will do is mention that it gave me over 2000 seasons of data, and a pretty clear impression of how a goal scorer typically operates.
Below is the graph with all 2000 points of data and a 6th degree polynomial trend line that shows a distinct peak around years 24-26, with a slow decline from 28 on-wards. Generally scorers hit their real stride in their 4th year in the NHL, and they produce at the high end for only 3-4 years.
The guys that start younger typically climb higher produce longer, so in that aspect, Kessel is a true asset. Players that score 30 goals regularly before they turn 25 are not plentiful, in fact there have only been 49 players to do so 4 or more times in the last thirty years of NHL hockey. Kessel is easily on track to be the 50th this year, joining the likes of Marian Hossa, Zach Parise, and Eric Staal. Of the 49 other players, only 9 remain active in the NHL. The others are Jaromir Jagr, Ilya Kovalchuk, Alex Ovechkin, Sidney Crosby, Marian Gaborik, and Rick Nash. Suffice it to say, Kessel is in VERY elite company from a goal scoring perspective.
Interestingly to Leaf fans, Kessel's production appears to generally mimic that of slightly older players like Zach Parise and Derek Roy relatively closely. Other names of note for their similarity in style of play I looked at were Tony Amonte, Petr Bondra, Petr Klima, and Simon Gagne. Just for kicks I threw in Jarome Iginla and Marian Hossa:
| Age | Player | GP | G | A | Pts |
| 19 | Kessel | 70 | 11 | 18 | 29 |
| Parise | / | / | / | / | |
| Klima | / | / | / | / | |
| Hossa | 7 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| Gagne | 80 | 20 | 28 | 48 | |
| Iginla | 82 | 21 | 29 | 50 | |
| Amonte | / | / | / | / | |
| Roy | / | / | / | / | |
| Bondra | / | / | / | / | |
| 20 | Kessel | 82 | 19 | 18 | 37 |
| Parise | / | / | / | / | |
| Klima | / | / | / | / | |
| Hossa | 60 | 15 | 15 | 30 | |
| Gagne | 69 | 27 | 32 | 59 | |
| Iginla | 70 | 13 | 19 | 32 | |
| Amonte | / | / | / | / | |
| Roy | 49 | 9 | 10 | 19 | |
| Bondra | / | / | / | / | |
| 21 | Kessel | 70 | 36 | 24 | 60 |
| Parise | 81 | 14 | 18 | 32 | |
| Klima | 74 | 32 | 24 | 56 | |
| Hossa | 78 | 29 | 27 | 56 | |
| Gagne | 79 | 33 | 33 | 66 | |
| Iginla | 82 | 28 | 23 | 51 | |
| Amonte | 79 | 35 | 34 | 69 | |
| Roy | / | / | / | / | |
| Bondra | / | / | / | / | |
| 22 | Kessel | 70 | 30 | 25 | 55 |
| Parise | 82 | 31 | 31 | 62 | |
| Klima | 77 | 30 | 23 | 53 | |
| Hossa | 81 | 32 | 43 | 75 | |
| Gagne | 46 | 9 | 18 | 27 | |
| Iginla | 77 | 29 | 34 | 63 | |
| Amonte | 83 | 33 | 43 | 76 | |
| Roy | 70 | 18 | 28 | 46 | |
| Bondra | 54 | 12 | 16 | 28 | |
| 23 | Kessel | 82 | 32 | 32 | 64 |
| Parise | 81 | 32 | 33 | 65 | |
| Klima | 78 | 37 | 25 | 62 | |
| Hossa | 80 | 31 | 35 | 66 | |
| Gagne | 80 | 24 | 21 | 45 | |
| Iginla | 77 | 31 | 40 | 71 | |
| Amonte | 79 | 17 | 25 | 42 | |
| Roy | 75 | 21 | 42 | 63 | |
| Bondra | 71 | 28 | 28 | 56 | |
| 24 | Kessel | 37 | 20 | 23 | 43 |
| Parise | 82 | 45 | 49 | 94 | |
| Klima | 51 | 25 | 16 | 41 | |
| Hossa | 80 | 45 | 35 | 80 | |
| Gagne | / | / | / | / | |
| Iginla | 82 | 52 | 44 | 96 | |
| Amonte | 48 | 15 | 20 | 35 | |
| Roy | 78 | 32 | 49 | 81 | |
| Bondra | 83 | 37 | 48 | 85 | |
| 25 | Kessel | ? | ? | ? | ? |
| Parise | 81 | 38 | 44 | 82 | |
| Klima | 76 | 30 | 33 | 63 | |
| Hossa | 81 | 36 | 46 | 82 | |
| Gagne | 72 | 47 | 32 | 79 | |
| Iginla | 75 | 35 | 32 | 67 | |
| Amonte | 81 | 31 | 32 | 63 | |
| Roy | 82 | 28 | 42 | 70 | |
| Bondra | 69 | 24 | 19 | 43 | |
| 26 | Kessel | ? | ? | ? | ? |
| Parise | 13 | 3 | 3 | 6 | |
| Klima | 70 | 40 | 28 | 68 | |
| Hossa | / | / | / | / | |
| Gagne | 76 | 41 | 27 | 68 | |
| Iginla | 81 | 41 | 32 | 73 | |
| Amonte | 81 | 41 | 36 | 77 | |
| Roy | 80 | 26 | 43 | 69 | |
| Bondra | 47 | 34 | 9 | 43 |
So what does that say about Kessel? Well considering how productive the guys on the list above have been past the age of 26, I think we can assume Kessel will stay productive for a few more years yet. In essence, I think what I'm saying - which contradicts my original perspective - is that the Leafs window doesn't close anytime soon. In fact, it likely doesn't close for another 5 or 6 years at the earliest.
So do I think the onus is on the Leafs to win right now? No - I don't. They're a marginal playoff team at best at the moment, and I don't think there's an easy quick fix to make them one. They need more size up front, and they need a reliable defensive D man to act as a calming influence on the back end.
I've proposed this recently in a number of forums, but I would advocate that the Leafs stand pat to some extent. Adding a free agent D man like Tim Gleason or Bryan Allen of the Carolina Hurricanes, or perhaps acquiring one via trade, would help the balance of this team.
The next issue on the horizon for the Leafs is the fact that there are too many bodies going forwards. Management brought John-Michael Liles in to compensate for the departure of Tomas Kaberle, but they didn't anticipate the accelerated development of Jake Gardiner. They also now have three young forwards in the form of Nazem Kadri, Matt Frattin, and Joe Colborne that are pretty obviously ready for a full time shot at the NHL. Their development may be painful at times, but in 3 or 4 years, the Leafs could be quite formidable up front if they retain the trio in addition to the likes of Kessel, Kulemin, MacArthur, and Bozak. Tim Connolly is likely sticking around for another year, and thus the odd men out become Mikhail Grabovski and Matt Lombardi.
Grabovski is unrestricted at the end of this season, and he and Liles would likely both fetch a decent price at the trade deadline. Both should be moved for prospects or picks. In terms of defensive shut down players, Schenn and Aulie nead seasoning, but it's very early to give up on 22 year old D men. If you examine the careers of other shut down defenders, they didn't really see much success while playing big minutes in the NHL until the age of 23-24. Think names like Anton Volchenkov, Robyn Regehr, Adam Foote, Brooks Orpik, etc.
Korbinian Holzer also deserves a chance on the Leafs blue line, and at 24, he too is probably ready for the NHL. Mike Komisarek likely isn't the answer for the Leafs, but with Jeff Finger coming off the books after this season, there's room in the AHL for an overpriced mistake on the blue line.
I don't think the Leafs are building for this year, and they shouldn't even realistically be building for next year. As painful as this long slow process is, I think we're looking at 3 or 4 years from now (still), and it doesn't hurt to add picks and prospects to the group we've already got. Think about the likes of Stuart Percy, Greg McKegg, Jesse Blacker, Tyler Biggs, Brad Ross, etc. and then ask yourself if you think the current Leafs club can seriously compete with Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and the NY Rangers in the East as it currently stands.
The new conference format doesn't make things easier with more battles vs. Boston on the horizon. This is what we have to look forwards to, and I hope the Leafs management group is taking a long term outlook on the whole process, rather than a myopic view - often the one shared by many Leafs fans. We aren't built to win in the playoffs just yet, and that's something we need to come to grips with. With experience will come more success, and over time we'll see that develop. Here's hoping we have the patience to wait out the slow rising of the Leafs.
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Good post Steve
This year really comes down to managing expectations and being patient, doesn’t it?
It’s frustrating when we see the flashes of brilliance from Kessel & Lupul and not much to back them up, especially if they have an off night or two. But hey, “Playoffs!!!1” — we couldn’t say that for a long time, could we?
We still need to finish off cellar-dwellers like Carolina though to keep our playoff hopes alive. Hope that’s the last time we see such a debacle this season!!
That’s assuming the Leafs have a legitimate window. I’m not sure what’s required, exactly, for them to make a few deep runs a few years in a row, but here are a few things I can think of.
One is that (I knocked on wood) Kessel stays healthy. Remember, we got him off a double shoulder surgery.
Another big question – can Reimer ever regain his career highs from his first year? Either his concussion problems or simply the case of an outstanding first year (like Mason) can mean he’s not the goalie we’re looking for.
Speaking of goalies, can any of the other guys on our depth chart become reliable enough to establish a tandem with Reimer, who plays better when he’s not overworked?
Then there are our defensive problems – Schenn and Aulie being the big standouts here. If we are to get to the final, we need a very good shutdown dman, like Pronger or Chara. Are either of those two likely to develop into premier shutdown guys?
Fi-re Wil-son! Clap-Clap Clap-Clap-Clap!!!
by Peter de Chatham on Dec 30, 2011 10:41 AM EST reply actions
the problem
with these questions is the only thing we can give it is time. Chara didn’t start as a star – he developed into one.
As for Reimer, his numbers this year aren’t as bad as you probably think (ESSV% is good), so I’m not so worried about him.
We aren’t going to be competitive for a bit yet and rushing it doesn’t help.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 30, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
The same amount unless a team moves east.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Free to roam the blueline.
"Ville Leino may stink but he’s still way better than Matt Ellis."
I think it has to be less than the six times we play them this year.
by joe leaf fan on Dec 30, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
unless we only play teams like philly twice….that will suck
by joe leaf fan on Dec 30, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, you only play Philly twice in the new format.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Free to roam the blueline.
"Ville Leino may stink but he’s still way better than Matt Ellis."
The amount of times we play teams in our division stays the same (6 times per year), and then we play two games against all of our non division teams.
99% of player salaries are payed out to only 1% of players. #OccupyNHL
I'm a Twitter twat.
by MLS on Jan 1, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
five-year-plan shmive year plan...
at this point, i’d say we’re at year 2 of a 5-year plan— which is good news, since we’ve been at year 1 for about 7 years running. trading away our prospects for the chance to skip a year or two is the reason why we’ve never been able to get out of the year one spiral.
the only guys we should be trading are the guys who we don’t think will be around when we hit year 5: making our biggest trade bait players grabo and liles. Not saying we should get rid of them… they’re both fantastic and make this team better. But they’d command the highest return.
i expected player peaks to be at late 20’s to early 30’s so great research steve! an enlightening article.
speaking of plans...
i hope all you tweepers out there took advantage of @LeafsBB20 Q & A this morning. my question to him was: “What pieces do we still need to become a cup contender?”
hope he answers it.
i guess i am that guy
by subversible on Dec 30, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I’m guessing his answer will be along the lines of:
Talent, truculence, and a boat load of testosterone.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
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Great post
I think Brad Stuart or Greg Zanon would be decent free agent options. Your thoughts?
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
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Zanon
has long been a favourite of mine. So he I’d welcome for sure. Stuart is also solid, but my concern is guys off contenders will cost more.
The advantage with Zanon is hehas actually been a healthy scratch in Min this year, so he might be cheap.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 30, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I have a feeling we could get Zanon for cheap if Min doesn’t re-sign him.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
Great visual representation. And what does the poly curve look like if the subset of players that produce earlier look like? That is if the players that started to produce at 18 or 19 (or whatever the cut off is appropriate) were only included, they may have a distinct age peak and distribution.
Does a relationship exist between age and SV% for goaltending?
Also for dman what would be the relevant factor (fenwick or corsi or +-/60) vs age?
There’s no shot-based (Corsi/Fenwick) data prior to 2008, so it’s usless for long-term comparisons.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 30, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I’m fine with a strategy that has the leafs make the playoffs for the forseeable future while making trades to improve themselves for the cup run when they collect the right pieces. That means deal forwards who are on tail end of their production career Grabbo, Lupul or Connolly and add experience to the defence. And maybe goaltending but that question can be answered later.
I’m inclined to agree with this. Prioritize the development of young, cost-controlled goal-scoring talent in-house, sign experienced defensemen if you have to. That way, theoretically, the young goal-scoring talent isn’t hampered by later-blooming young shutdown defensemen.
Draft goals, sign D, get lucky in net.
Pittsburgh sort of did this, with a defense anchored by good FA signings (plus Letang and Goligoski when he was there).
by Shift on Dec 30, 2011 2:22 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
not to mention
Ryan Whitney – whom they traded to get Kunitz.
Similar to Goligoski – whom they traded to get Neal.
Signing vets is also a good idea to surround the youngsters though – in a fashion to how Boston added Mark Recchi, Pittsbrugh added Gary Roberts, Detroit added Shanahan, Chicago added Hossa.
We really need our D to develop more though. If you look at the top end teams, they all have very solid D corps that took a while to develop overall, particularly on the defensive side of things.
Pittsburgh drafted Orpik before all their other stars, Chicago had Keith, Barker, Seabrook, etc. before they added Campbell, Toews, Kane, Bolland, Hossa, Brouwer etc.
Washington sort of did it concurrently with Alzner, Schultz, Green, etc. along with the likes of Ovechkin, Semin, and Backstrom.
The Leafs need more TIME to develop their D… and we can’t make that happen magically. We still need to be more patient… and YES it is possible that the D we have never pan out, in fact that’s a significant worry on my part.
Aulie and Schenn may never turn into serious shut down guys, but it would help if we had someone to mentor them in those aspects like a Zanon, or Willie Mitchell, or Kurt Sauer, or Tim Gleason, or Bryan Allen (all of whom are UFA this year).
Komisarek was a mistake… unfortunately we thought we were getting prime years of a shut down guy, but that is pretty obviously not the case.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 30, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Also
look at how long it took the likes of Bieksa and Edler to develop… they had Ohlund for a long time, and Salo and Hamhuis were brought in after the fact… Vancouver’s D wasn’t built overnight either.
What I do keep faith with though is, if you look at who is in mgmt for the Leafs, and the coaching staff, they have experience with good defenders. Wilson helped mold the Sharks D, and Burke and Nonis built Vancouver’s D in many ways.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 30, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
oh and Anaheim's
can’t forget Anaheim… but we are unlikely to suddenly land a Niedermayer or a Pronger at this point.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 30, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, we could probably get Pronger pretty cheap now.
Just sayin’
/notserious
This space for rant...
by fair_n_hite_451 on Dec 31, 2011 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Trade Lupul for Pronger.
"They build a statue, they knock it down and piss on it, and now they will be out there building it again."
by ThickSkinnedAlive on Dec 31, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
Big difference between different kinds of “veteran” signings, though. Shanahan had seven 30+ goal seasons for Detroit, including three of 40+. Hossa has been nearly a PPG player for the Hawks since signing there.
Recchi, on the other hand, was brought in as a 2nd line depth guy in Boston, same with Bill Guerin in Pittsburgh (a better example than Roberts, IMO, who was frequently injured and didn’t win a cup with the Penguins).
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 30, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
ok fair enough
I’m just saying bringing in a veteran isn’t a bad plan if you want someone to lead the kids and show them what it takes to win.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 30, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Schenn, in some ways, had veteran leadership in Kaberle
Though, the two play totally different styles.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
I think that’s why the Leafs pay so much to keep Zigomanis in the AHL. They think he’s a good influence on the kids down there.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 30, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
This might have been stated previously but looking at the above UFA list what do you reckon happens with grabbo liles gus or even the likes of crabb boyce or Hamilton?
by mexicanfoxholes93 on Dec 30, 2011 3:31 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Something about the Americans losing
Feels so right
by jd90 on Dec 30, 2011 7:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I’m actually saddened to see the Americans lose out, they deserved a better fate. Like losing to Canada in the finals or losing to Canada in the semis (just kidding). Must say though the Americans played hard, that goalie stood on his head.
When losing an argument on the internet, be sure to attack someones grammar. That is the only way to save face.
i don't think they played that hard
I think the Czech overall were a better team, minus the penalties of course
+1 is only good if you actually rec the post
by Bowling_Guy25 on Dec 30, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds fairly familiar…
This space for rant...
by fair_n_hite_451 on Dec 31, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
Changes
GMs and coaches come and go, and every year it is the same around here. Colour me cynical, with the current powers that be, we have traded Blue & White disease for the Providence College black hole. I am beginning to understand the shelf life Burke had in Vancouver. Wilson, I have nothing to say, he doesn’t need me to make excuses, it may be the only thing he does well. But I will be back on the bandwagon at the first glimmer of hope.
As Michael Corleone said…“I thought I was out, and they dragged me back in again.”
How quickly did you expect the rebuild to be finished? 1 year? 2? The team is young and improving. I know it’s frustrating, but a rebuild takes time.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 30, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at where we are and where we need to be, I think you guys should be amazed at how quickly Burke has reshaped not only your team but the prospect pool as well. Relax, you’re in good hands.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
nice post i like the window but still believe RW scheme is a burden on these young players
a “shutdown” defenseman can’t exist on this team with wilson’s style of play. wilson wants fast offensive transition, spread the ice and crash the net. while that sounds fine and good it sells out your young defensemen and goaltender too often and if you dont have a team of finishers you often give up more chances than you generate.
We do have a team of finishers. We have one of the top-ranked offenses in the NHL.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 31, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions

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