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Toronto Maple Leafs Trade Deadline Wrapup

ATLANTA, GA - FEBRUARY 27:  Mikhail Grabovski #84 of the Toronto Maple Leafs takes a shot on goal against the Atlanta Thrashers at Philips Arena on February 27, 2011 in Atlanta, Georgia.  (Photo by Kevin C. Cox/Getty Images)

The Leafs were quiet today, only trading minor leaguer John Mitchell for a 7th, but weren't quiet in days leading up to the trade deadline.

"I think people know this, we try to get out in front of the trade deadline," Burke said. "I think it's easier to make the deals you want before it's gets confused and before the aisle gets crowded. We've made a couple of deals and Nashville made a good-sized deal with Ottawa, so I think you'll probably see more activity in advance of the deadline for that reason. It just gets confused. It's like a cattle stampede at the deadline." - NESN.com

Burke had consistently stated that he wanted to get out ahead of the trade market and make deals before other GMs. Burke wanted to set the market for his assets and he did, trading Kris Versteeg, Francois Beauchemin and Tomas Kaberle for two late first round picks, prospects Jake Gardiner and Joe Colborne and a few later round picks.

Not a lot of quality players changed hands today. Los Angeles got Dustin Penner, and it's not surprising Burke wouldn't deal with Edmonton for Penner given the history there, and that's pretty much it for blockbuster deals. The Penner deal is the only trade that saw a first change hands today.

I know a lot of people are disappointed the Leafs didn't add Brad Richards, Ales Hemsky, Stephen Weiss and Tomas Vokoun but there wasn't a lot of movement today... just what Burke wanted.

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Comments

Display:

I’ll gladly take “slow deadline” over “gave up assets for Liles.” And we even got something for Mitchell. I’ll give Burke an A- for today.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:22 PM EST reply actions  

Leafs got for Mitchell what the Sens got for Kovalev… therefore, Mitchell is as good as Kovalev. Hmmmm… my calculator broke.

by Learn2Leaf on Feb 28, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

mojo and effort level seem similar. ultimate talent level, not so much. though i admit, mitchell had some great moves in the shootout.

by spoonie on Feb 28, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

pray...for...mojo!

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Wasn’t Kovalev’s a conditional while Mitchell is just a 7th straight up?

by Toby T on Feb 28, 2011 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, but kovalevs is at least a 7th, but could be a 6th

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

And Kovy is due to get paid more. By a wee little bit.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

The Brian Burke Don’t Do Something Stupid Deadline has come and gone and Mr. Burke did in fact not do something stupid.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:23 PM EST reply actions  

Glen Sather on the other hand.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I can’t wait to find out how many teams Mitchell will have to list for the modified NTC on his multi-year extension.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

We joke, but this is a genuine fear of Rangers fans.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m still extremely scared about July 1. Will Burke resist another long-term deal for a UFA D?

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Feb 28, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope not.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

You hope he does

He asked “will Burke resist”

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Pfffft literacy.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I;d rather Burke over pay Erhoff in the off season than over pay for liles at the deadline

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think he’ll be going for another D-men.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

The good thing about Liles is we’d only have him for 1 yr (i.e. perfect stopgap. Ehrhoff will get 4 yrs or more and it’s almost a guarantee will be seem as a cap anchor by year 3 of that deal.

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Feb 28, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you base this on?
it’s almost a guarantee will be seem as a cap anchor by year 3 of that deal.

That is pure speculation

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s based on pretty much every long term UFA deal signed post-lockout. I actually did a pretty detailed analysis of UFA signings from a couple years ago and the batting average was dismally low.

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Feb 28, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

If you say so. I wonder if that would hold true if you stratified by age. ie Erhoff is 28 (will be 29 by next year). For the record I though Erhoff was 25. I am no longer behind signing him…

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I am back to

Someone like Babchuk. Maybe even White if he is reasonably priced.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Really want white. Always felt like he was a great fit here.

"Blue and white, till i die" —Darryl Boyce.

by doggit on Feb 28, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Traded thrice in a year. Pretty clear he’s not all that great

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I assume it will lower his price. I’d take him for 2 ish mil.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Good thing you ain’t in charge

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I strongly believe we need a stop gap who can provide some offense for 1-2 years in this organization. We have some solid PMD prospects coming through the pipeline but none are likely to be ready next year.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Some of the best moves a GM can make are the ones you don’t, period.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Feb 28, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s pretty rare to get UFAs younger than 27. And we know it’s usually downhill from there.

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Feb 28, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

LEINO

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with not going after Erhoff, but I don’t think the comparison with Liles is a good one. An anchor is an anchor, even if only for the short term, and he’d cost assets. Very different varieties of bad (theoretical) acquisitions.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

all i was really saying was I would rather have an over paid guy we got for “free” than a slightly less over paid guy for young assets

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

False choice. I take neither.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

you’re a dreamer
I like that

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, he’s not the only one.

The Belorussian buzz saw only has one setting:
HYPERDEATH!
- Certified Grabbo Lover

by Sergei Puckizin on Feb 28, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

ba da baboom.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m happy with that Burke has done. He has added prospects, draft picks and a roster player. He got rid of age and a "mistake" (his words not mine) over the past month.
I’m content with our GM.

Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
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by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:24 PM EST reply actions  

I’m content with our situation going forward.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

You can re-letter your Versteeg jersey into Nick Kypreos, Benoit Hogue, Daniel Marois, or even Steve Thomas!

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

How’ that Wellwood Bozak jersey of yours?

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I use it as a car cover.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

he can’t get the cheese burger smell out of his car

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s about the right size.

by unavoidable on Feb 28, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

When you getting your 19 Kadri jersey re-lettered/numbered?

Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984

by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Kadri’s not wearing 13 up here.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

But will Lupul give up #19?

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Shrug.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Kadri should buy it off of him like Phaneuf did with Exelby.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I heard Exelby gave it to him

Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984

by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

“Hey coach, Exelby wanted me to wear #3 all on his own and nobody got any broken fingers.”

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

“You’re sure Exelby didn’t break his fingers? Did you double check? Damn.”

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Man with tie say you leaving in few months. Me want #3. bangs rocks

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn’t XLB get a Rolex or something from our favourite caveman?

by Jo4nny on Feb 28, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

It was a Ronex

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

genewine ronex watch!

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

The Kypreos one would take a bit more work than the others, considering his name had to be upside down above the logo on the front so he knew who he was.

by Jo4nny on Feb 28, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol, I’m sure Dion The Diplomat would benefit from such a sweater addition.

by Codeezy on Feb 28, 2011 5:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Me too…I’m especially happy with our fifth and six defenceman, at times they offer comic relief to an otherwise boring team.

by jeffgm on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow.
Do you ever say anything intelligent?

Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984

by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Is he wrong? No.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 28, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

HOORAY! NO MISTAKES! TWO FIRSTS! JOE COLBORNE

Dion Phaneuf: turning the tunes up since '10

Follow Me On Twitter!

by thenumber14 on Feb 28, 2011 4:24 PM EST reply actions  

GARDINER!

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

TEAM CHEMISTRY!!!1

Dion Phaneuf: turning the tunes up since '10

Follow Me On Twitter!

by thenumber14 on Feb 28, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

HOPE!!1

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator) CERTIFIED GRABBO LOVER

ON TWITTER: warwalker

by jrwendelman on Feb 28, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

FUTURE!

NOT-EMPTY CUPBOARDS!

The Belorussian buzz saw only has one setting:
HYPERDEATH!
- Certified Grabbo Lover

by Sergei Puckizin on Feb 28, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Brian Burke tells @ArashMadani he doesn’t want to go longer than 2 years on a contract for Clarke MacArthur. #Leafs

From here

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:27 PM EST reply actions  

 This is probibly why he hasn’t signed yet. Mac probibly wants more term than Burke will give. They probibly are close on money though.

by 6rick6 on Feb 28, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t be surprised if MacArthur wanted to wait until arbitration. If he puts up 60 points this year, he’ll probably get an out of whack award.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

He won’t want to Dominic Moore himself in the foot, I bet he resigns before then.

by Jo4nny on Feb 28, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

wouldn't be surprised

but i think he’d fine the same thing would happen.

If anarbitrator decides 60 points is worth $4M i think Burke would walk on a one year deal and then he’d be in the same boat. I still don’t see anybody’s putting big money and big term on him. They could have done so last year and look at what he got.

Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs

by pevans on Feb 28, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

He didn’t exactly light up the league like he has this year, last year.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

His deal last year wasn’t a regular arbitration process. Atlanta didn’t want him at any price, and declined to submit a counteroffer so they could make sure his award was high enough to allow them to walk away. Very different situation.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I REALLY hope that MacArthur doesn’t file for arbitration. If he does, he’s no longer eligible for an offer sheet and the Leafs lose a whole pile of leverage.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Feb 28, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t disagree with this. I am not 100% on how much longer Kulie and Grabs have got after this season is over, but there is no point locking him up for too long if they move on. Get Mac on a length similar to what those guys have left and then re-examine in a couple of years if Kadri, Colborne, etc. would be a better fit.

by Phaneuf's Rock Collection on Feb 28, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Kulemin – RFA after 2012
Grabovski – UFA after 2012

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Then it would be a 1-year deal, and I’m pretty sure he’s not game for that.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I can understand that. He wants to see what Mac is made of during those 2 years and then and only then will he commit long term.

GWWWHAAAA!

by Mislav Xterratu Jantoljak on Feb 28, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

My math skills are gone today, but he only has one more year of RFA eligibility after this, correct?

Oh, four! I mean five! I mean fire! Now available in lite version!

by chillin411 on Feb 28, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

this makes sense

see if the production is “for real” or sustainable before offering him a longer term deal. He only gave Grabovski and Kulemin 3… if their deals all expire in the next couple of years and they continue to improve our cap number could dwindle quickly.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Kulie’s deal was 2 years. Signed this past summer, expires next summer.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Burke got something of value for Johnny Fuckin’ Mitchell. And He sent him to the Rags. Awesome.

In Lou We Trust/Twitter
I wish there was something I could do. But What?

by Kevin Sellathamby on Feb 28, 2011 4:28 PM EST reply actions  

 Why didn’t they just pick him up on waivers a few weeks back?? those morons.

by 6rick6 on Feb 28, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not exactly as if the New York Rangers are a very clever team..

by chawnsy on Feb 28, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

 You mean passing on Cam Fowler and Brandon Gormley for Dylan Macilraith isn’t smart??

by 6rick6 on Feb 28, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Glen Sather, that is all.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m glad that Burke let the market, and not the teams current short-term situation, determine his actions leading up to and at the deadline. He recognized that he would get a good return for trading away some roster players, and would have to overpay if he had to add any impact players himself. Love it.

by Shield on Feb 28, 2011 4:28 PM EST reply actions  

Aside from Penner, Versteeg, Kaberle and Beauchemin not a lot of talent moved around.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Erik Johnson, Chris Stewart, James Neal?

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh right. Nonetheless most of the talent moved way before today.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I was about to say

This has been one of the craziest deadline periods I have ever seen. Stewart and Johnson are better than everyone Chemmy listed besides Kabs

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

RAWRRRRR JAMES NEAL!

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Goligoski

Wideman, McCabe, Bergfors, Kovalev, Anderson… bunch of half decent players.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

As a side note, if Skinny and Chemmy don’t go to a CT Whale game to heckle John Mitchell mercilessly, I’ll be extremely disappointed in them.

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

Kinda sounds like they want him on the Rangers, not the Whale.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

lol… Mitchell on the Rangers… can you imagine such a world?

by chawnsy on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

 awwwww, now Kadri cant set Mitchel up with one timers that will miss the net by 8 feet.

by 6rick6 on Feb 28, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Burke sticks to the “internal pricing,” rather than overpaying. Excellent. We’ll see what happens at the draft – with any luck, people will be a little more pick-focused and a little more flexible on their own pricing.

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:31 PM EST reply actions  

Could sell MacArthur’s RFA rights……

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I would be annoyed if he did that.

Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984

by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

If the return is a king’s ransom, I wouldn’t.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

RFA rights, a whole slew of picks including two first rounders, and an even better idea about our CHL prospects, many of whom seem to be doing their jobs well.

This is where a witty signature might go.
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by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Burke's next steps

Lock down Schenn, MacArthur, Bozak, Reimer, Gunnar, Scrivens & Rynnas to RFA deals.

Honestly other than “maybe” Tim Brent as a 4C I would let all our other UFAs walk.

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d consider Boyce over Brent.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

 Brent 4c is perfect.

by 6rick6 on Feb 28, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

How can they not resign Boyce to a deal. Even if its to play in AHL, he deserves to be rewarded with his play this year

Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984

by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d keep em both. (Brent and Boyce. )

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I like him, and would like to see him back, but if depth forces him to the AHL, I don’t really see the point.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Alex Foster and Ryan Hamilton have no future with this club.

Toss both of them, and keep Zigomanis, Crabb and Boyce as veteran presences on the Marlies / emergency call-ups who can play a regular shift in the NHL.

Brent is the #4 centre.

See ya Freddy.

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

See ya Freddy.

Yup. I’m surprised Burke didn’t deal him for a 7th as well today.

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t even keep Crabb. Also there is no guarantee Boyce would want to stay and not get a shot somewhere else as a 4th liner if we won’t give him that opportunity

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

To be fair, I’m not sure there are a lot of teams where he would get that chance, except maybe Ottawa.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

do you forget?

“Blue and white, till i die” —Darryl Boyce.

by doggit on Feb 28, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

trade him to Tampa!

Certified Grabbo lover. GET WELL SOON, SID
The universe moves depending on where Sidney Crosby is on the ice - IHeartPenguins
"I'm glad we've got the best fans in the league." - Tomas Kaberle on Leaf fans

by Leafer87 on Feb 28, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially with his going with 3 goaltenders right now, somebody should go down so that a 7th defenseman can be brought up.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Orr to LTIE; call up Finger.

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Can we still call him up? Wouldn’t he have to go through waivers?

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Not if it’s an emergency recall.

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Who’s paying $1.75M to sit Finger until next season?

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

They don't pay 1.75

They pay $448 000 this year (only 21 games left). Add that to 1.75 mil next year and htey pay a total of 2.2 mil for a year of Finger with only 1.75 coming off their cap next year. I could see teams doing it.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Correction:

Who’s paying $450,000 to sit Finger until next season?

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by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

New York

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t see it. At all.

Resident Capologist
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by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, me neither.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't see it as likely

But to plausible to risk 1.75 cap hit next year

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

No Finger in case he gets claimed and we’re on the hook for half his cap next season. Anyone else though, sure.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

he’s also still hurt

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Who gets the call this time? Gyspers? Lashoff (risk re-entry)? Richmond?

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Foster

is the captain of the Marlies… Hamilton is tied for 3rd highest ppg production on the Marlies with Christian Hanson, but unlike Hanson he’s +9 rather than -1.

They’re also both RFA’s… Zigomanis is a UFA… why are we bringing him back again?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

players that won't be back on the Marlies

Jeff Cowan, Mike Zigomanis… possibly Danny Richmond, Brayden Irwin, Aaron Voros is also not a sure thing.

I’m not sure Foster and Hamilton are the ones you drop.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

for the zigomania of course.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Foster

is the captain of the Marlies… Hamilton is tied for 3rd highest ppg production on the Marlies with Christian Hanson, but unlike Hanson he’s +9 rather than -1.

They’re also both RFA’s… Zigomanis is a UFA… why are we bringing him back again?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Each team gets 50 SPC spots a year. If it’s not being used for someone in the NHL, on the cusp of the NHL, or on someone who still has potential to become an NHLer, it’s being wasted.

Hamilton’s turning 26, and has never played in the NHL.
Foster is turning 27, and has played 3 career games in the NHL, all in 07-08.

These guys were both part of the org. during the period when we were among the worst teams in the league, at ages where it’s commonly held that a player is at their most productive. The Leafs have added talent at all levels in the past 3 years; they’re suddenly cracking the roster?

If they want to sign AHL contracts they are welcome to return to the Marlies, but I’d much rather keep Zigomanis on a two-way deal because he’s proven he can play a fourth-line role in the NHL.

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by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Zigomanis still eligible for a 2-way contract?

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Why wouldn’t he be?

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn’t there an upper limit on age or service? If not then nevermind…

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t believe so, I think you might be confusing 2-way contracts with waiver exemption.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

nope. I know they are separate, but similar in that regard.

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh well in that case, see below.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you’re always eligible for a 2-way contract.

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Who cares if it’s a one or two-way deal. Doesn’t change his waiver status, only changes the amount he’s paid if he’s in the bigs or with the Marlies.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Feb 28, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

two-ways are essentially pointless for MLSE unless they’re hardballing a minor leaguer.

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe

but you CAN’T always be easily moved up and down, because waivers become an issue.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

But that’s not what we were talking about… I don’t think. I jumped into this conversation half way through haha

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

2-way (or 1-way, what does MLSE care), prove he can outplay any prospects (Kadri, Colborne, etc.), then keep him up.

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I sure hope Brent is back next year. He’s top 10 on the team in scoring on the year (8th if you remove Kaberle and Versteeg) playing only 11 minutes a night, often with pretty lousy linemates like Colton Orr. He’s reasonably good on the draw (51.7%), he’s great on the OK, and he’ll probably be willing to sign a pretty cheap contract. He’s pretty much a perfect 4th line centre.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha, that should say great on the PK, not OK.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

top 10 in the team in scoring?

is a bit misleading when the guy only has 7 goals and 14 points.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

All it says to me is that the team is pretty weak in terms of scoring depth. At any rate, 8-10 goals is pretty decent for a 4th line checking forward playing limited minutes.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

actually

Darryl Boyce has better P/60 than Brent… Boyce is at 1.75 at ES, which is above Phil Kessel’s 1.63. Tim Brent’s is pretty soft at 1.01. He’s behind Joey Crabb (1.44), Jay Rosehill (1.41), Lupul (1.33) and Kadri (1.04).

He’s ahead of Bozak’s 0.88 though if that helps.

On the PP he’s at a ridiculous 8.08 p/60 though… don’t think that’s sustainable but we’ll see what happens.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Boyce and THE LEGEND are all on very small sample sizes here, which is, y’know, unsustainable…

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

My (hopefully) realistic goal for Phaneuf 2011/2012

I hope our Captain plays next season like he has since the all star break (with a little less minutes…just because I think he’ll burn out).

But his pace since Feb 1 over an 82 game schedule?
12 G, 41 pts, Even +/-, 24 PPP, 82 PIMS, 234 Shots, 211 hits

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:34 PM EST reply actions  

i'd love this

but it banks on the last month being the fairer barometer of his career. As opposed to the 30-40 months before that….

Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs

by pevans on Feb 28, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

By which you mean the ~12 months before that. 30-40 months is 2.5-3.3 years. That would include years where he had 11 and 17 g and 47 and 60 points…

Last year before he came to Toronto he was on pace for 15 G, 33 pts, 16 PPP, and 206 shots. So it is pretty consistent with that too. The time I am not looking at is the 1 year he was in Blue and white, or 12 months.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Next Step

agonize over what to do with all of these draft picks

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 4:43 PM EST reply actions  

It’s a weak draft so do we flip ’em to move up, or trade one of them for a 1st next year?

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they are moved for prospects/young players at the draft

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Feb 28, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

PAUL STASTNY!

Fairweather fans can go to hell
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by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

damn straight

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

We can flip them for better picks, we can use them like lottery tickets (more is better), or we can move them for players.

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by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

why would you trade picks to move up in a weak draft? doesn’t make sense that the more picks the more likely of finding at the very least a regular NHLer? I can understand moving up when there are certain players that have a greater likelihood of being nhl regulars where there is “higher end” talent/prospects but in a weak draft, the talent level is generally lower but there are more players throughout that have just as likely a chance to make it, regardless of the round (to some extent)… at least that’s what I was always led to believe.
shrugs shoulders

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Feb 28, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s only a weak draft because the pick Toronto gave to Boston is now 8th.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Shouldn’t that mean there are exactly 8 can’t-miss prospects?

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by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

lets count
Larsson
Coutourier
Nugent-Hopkins
Murphy
Landeskog
Hamilton
Saad
Strome

yup!

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

wait is it a weak draft or not? I’m confused – not hard to do…and are we calling Larsson, Nugent-Hopkins, Coutourier, et-al can’t miss picks or what I call useful NHL regular, ie guarantee 100+ games at the very least?

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Feb 28, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Depends on which poor bastard gets picked by the Rangers.

This is where a witty signature might go.
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by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

is it weaker than some of the more recent drafts? yes
is it a weak draft historically? not even close

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

you trade one of the late firsts, plus a 3rd or whatever if you want to move up 1-4 spots
you dont trade both unless you can some how move into the top 10

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Think this is applicable?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2410670

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

looks about right
but there sure are a lot of numbers and I dont see a clever anagram to describe it so it wont catch on

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Per the NFL draft table you could package pick 24 and pick 28 to get to pick 8.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not familiar with how talent is distributed in the NFL draft but it feels that the top of the first round is undervalued as compared to the middle/bottom of the round. From this table, it seems that 13 and 14 will get you 3rd overall and 17 and 18 will get you 4th. Our two picks in the late first round look to be worth around a 10th overall.

I don’t have evidence to back up my gut feeling. Didn’t someone here do an analysis of historic NHL trades and discover that you could generally move up about 5 places for a late first rounder or early second rounder?

President of the Emotional Hedging club.
24/02/2011: I was there when Brett Lebda scored.

by Oafijev on Feb 28, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

a late 1st in the nfl draft is a guarenteed starting player. even a 3rd round pick in the nfl is generally a starter.. the later 1sts in the nfl are way more valuable relative to a top 10 pick than a late 1st in the nhl

Incessant label peeler due to lack of playoffs

by AkiSchennberg on Feb 28, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That would do it, thanks for the knowledge drop.

President of the Emotional Hedging club.
24/02/2011: I was there when Brett Lebda scored.

by Oafijev on Feb 28, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't know this either

but it makes sense… if each team has like 100 people on it, then you need far more people coming in to keep rosters properly stocked. Also I believe NFL careers are shorter on average, so that, too, would require more throughput.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably the same reason why the NBA only has a two-round draft. Don’t need that many players when your entire roster is a dozen people and you only really play like 8 of them.

Professional cusser causer.

by T is for Truculence on Mar 1, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

This is a good point. You can’t compare drafts across the major sports in NA because the value of picks is so different in each one. The NBA draft is as close as you would get to NHL but they only have 2 rounds if i’m not mistaken? NFL draft picks are generally starters deep into the 3rd round. MLB is a crapshoot because of all the signing issues. They can’t trade their picks anyway.

Realistically i don’t see Burke getting good enough value moving both of his picks for a single higher pick. If he trades both 1sts i could see him possibly moving up 4 or 5 spots to get the guy he wants and then picking up a pick in the 2nd or 3rd round. So something like 26 and 30 for 21 and 51.

by schennsational on Feb 28, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Would not want that unless someone like Nugent-Hopkins falls down that far because people discover he has an irrational fear of escalators on the eve of the draft or something.

This space for rent...

by fair_n_hite_451 on Feb 28, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I would rather do that than trade both 1sts for say pick 15 which is about as high as Burke could expect to get IMHO.

by schennsational on Feb 28, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

In 2008 it cost Fletcher a 2nd a 3rd to move up two spots. To move up 15-18 spots into the top ten it is going to cost more than just the second 1st round pick that we have. It will probably cost us Philly’s 3rd as well. Not worth it at all. KEEP BOTH PICKS!!

by schennsational on Feb 28, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

That was considered a strong draft though, so the top 5 picks were valued very highly by GM’s.
In a weaker draft you might see GM’s willing to move picks at a lesser price because the player they want is doubtful to be picked up earlier in the draft.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that that was a strong draft but Fletcher only moved from 7th to 5th in a draft that was more than 5 players deep at the top. This draft is seen as being 7 or 8 players deep as far as the top tier of players goes. Beyond that point there is really not much sense in moving both 1sts to get a player comparable to what you could get twice by standing pat.

by schennsational on Feb 28, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Wasn’t it considered a 6 player draft at the time (Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian, Pieterangelo, Schenn & Filatov)?

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude. Escalators can be damn scary.

President of the Emotional Hedging club.
24/02/2011: I was there when Brett Lebda scored.

by Oafijev on Feb 28, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

my mother

has an escalator phobia.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

churning metal

stairs? I saw a woman fall down the down escalator at York Mills station one morning… that was scary shit… it’s an extremely long and steep stairway.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

That kid is back on the escalator!

No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise.

by article1 on Feb 28, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Mid to late round picks in the NFL Draft will be worth more than those same picks in the NHL Draft simply due to the increased amount of positions in the game of football: QB, RB, LT, RT, TE, G, C DLM, DT, LB, CB, S, K, WR; versus hockey F, D, G.

Theoretically, in the NFL Draft you could get the best cornerback available with the 13th overall pick, thus giving that pick a lot of value for your team. But in hockey, you’re not going to get the best at any position aside from goaltenders who usually go later.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s soooo 2004 ;) I think this article makes some interesting talking points. Not what I’m saying but none the less interesting.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Feb 28, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

gonize over what to do with all of these draft picks Higgins being a Canuck

=o)

Fairweather fans can go to hell
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by leafer1984 on Feb 28, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

See below. It sounds like he’s absolutely looking to move them.

This is where a witty signature might go.
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by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Burke on AM 640

Expected it to be quiet, not disappointed in that. Tried to do a couple things at a “set price,” didn’t materialize. “Heavy lifting” was done over the last few weeks, added some important draft picks and young assets. Most of the deals today meant moving some of those young assets, weren’t interested in paying it.

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

Happy with how the kids are playing now.

On Liles: This was always about depth, and if we could get “a” defenseman at the right price for depth, we were going to do it, we were. None of the defensemen on the market were available at the right price.

Thanks Mitchell, no idea whether Mitchell will be a Ranger or a Whale, Sather’s initial thought was Whale, but obviously it’s none of Burke’s business. Hasn’t spoken to Mitchell yet, but will.

Interest in our goaltenders, interest in “lots” of players. “The younger group we’ve put together has gotten great interest.” We worked hard to put these together, we’re not going to cast them aside for short-term help. Injury situation re: goaltending illustrates that you can never have too many. “The day you trade a defensemen, one gets hurt” [hah]. Happy with the guys we put in place, their ranking and their play. In “my” mind, we have to sort out who we have and who’s going to play where before we start pedaling guys. Still need to figure out who’s in position to be #1*, 2, 3 goaltenders for next year.

Mac was NOT shopped to other teams, still working on what’s a fair salary for Mac. Not a fault of Meehan or the club, “is this Clark that has put up 40 poitns for the last 3 years, or is it 60 point. Is he benefitting from Grabbo/Kulemin?” Prepared to go to arbitration if we have to.

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Watters being stupid (“would you ever walk away from mac in arbitration?”) – Burke points out that they have that right, but if he gets an award in the range they expect, that’s okay too. Burke is okay with raising his pay, but seems to stress on 2 years. Watters being stupid: “Why not give him a signing bonus?” Because it still goes on the cap. Burke doesn’t “want to pay a penny more than what’s fair – who is this player?” Watters in love with the sound of his own voice, telling Burke about negotiations 101. Burke says Clark isn’t being unreasonable, the numbers that the agent has put on the table are “fair” in his [Meehan’s] mind, they want to work out what’s fair. “It’s harder to quantify a guy who’s had a breakout year.”

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

On the subject of picks: Every asset is always in play at a certain price. Goal going in to the draft – entry draft normally produces players contributing in 2 to 3 years – goal has always been to add players who shortcut the process. Would those picks be available for someone who’s playing or closer to playing? Yes. Could you package those to move in to the top 10? “Probably.” But we won’t know until the draft.

Colborne’s timetable depends on his summer. Needs more strength, power. He goes into traffic areas, not a soft power, but needs to be stronger on his feet, more power in his game. Then he’ll compete for a job in the fall.

Jonas played well for the Marlies, looks sharp, recalled. Reimer injury looks not serious, just a sore neck. Should be ready for practice tomorrow.

Fin.

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks for the recap!

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.

by Redonred on Feb 28, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

No problem. It was actually nice listening to a Burke interview that felt fairly bluster-free. Answered a couple questions I had, too.

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately Burke didn’t address what he intends to do to fill the socklessness in the organization.

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.

by Redonred on Feb 28, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Wear sandals, duh.

Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Feb 28, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

/Looks outside

As a Toronto sports fan I proudly follow the lessons of lachrymology.

by Redonred on Feb 28, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

So!
who does Burke target to draft with those two late 1sts?

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 4:59 PM EST reply actions  

They should draft me and SkinnyFish we have awesome intangibles.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I have concerns over skinnyfish’s past injuries

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d provide depth on defense while bringing a great mind to the game. Veteran locker room leadership.

Chemmy is your play making, shit disturbing winger.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m playing tonight, Sam asked me to come so here we are. I’m tired.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

and with that 7th from the Rangers, we can even take a chance on drafting PPP as a project

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Iffy. I’d draft mf37 first.

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by Chemmy on Feb 28, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking we take him in the 5th, he sounds like the kind of steal Detroit might target

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t burn the pick. He only has a pedigree of .5 rpp (recs-per-post).

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Feb 28, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Has some weight issues, but off-season conditioning should remedy that.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

They should take me with the 3rd. I’m good at adjusting the volume.

Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production

by puckurgently on Feb 28, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I already know I’m a lock for the leafs own 2nd

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

if you draft me you’d be getting a prototypical power forward who not’ afraid to get into the dirty areas of the ice to create plays and use his speed to generate scoring chances.

Dion Phaneuf: turning the tunes up since '10

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by thenumber14 on Feb 28, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

If you draft me I’d be really happy

(what, you need me to play hockey? Sure, I love hockey. What, at a high level? ahhhhh.)

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Those picks...

I think just about anything can happen with those picks. People should stop underestimating Burke. Regardless of where the team stands now – the organization has more depth and rigor than before. The picks – I think – will be part of the next phase for the Leafs: the addition of a stud centre. He will be young and talented and he will be a Leaf this summer. The picks will in some fashion go toward that player – whoever he is : )

Follow the best players - Become the best player.

by Bestplayerintheworld on Feb 28, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome

Thanks for joining.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Mitchell? Traded?

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 5:28 PM EST reply actions  

Hey Look ! Brando before he got FAT OLD AND UGLY

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson

by FLYERROB on Feb 28, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I just love this gesture. Not even quite sure what it means… but non-committaly happy… yeah… awesome.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok I've been reading people saying

all of MacArthur’s comparables suggest around $3 mill… I don’t know if that’s accurate.

The comparables I’m coming up with from last year are Neal, Stewart, Eriksson, Carter, Giroux, and Moulson. Here are their stats and contracts:

Neal: (08-09) 24 G, 37 pts; (09-10) 27 G, 55 pts; $2.875 mill
Eriksson: (08-09) 36 G, 63 pts; (09-10) 29 G, 71 pts; $4.267 mill
Stewart: (08-09) 11 G, 19 pts; (09-10) 28 G, 64 pts; $2.875 mill
Giroux: (08-09) 9G, 27 pts; (09-10) 16 G, 47 pts; (10-11) 21 G, 58 pts; $3.75 mill
Carter: (08-09) 46 G, 84 pts; (09-10) 33 G, 61 pts; $5.272 mill
Moulson: (09-10) 30 G, 48 pts; $2.45 mill; (10-11) 27 G, 42 pts; $3.133 mill

He’s going to get around the same number of goals as Moulson, and around the same number of points as Stewart and Giroux. The distinction between MacArthur and Stewart and Neal is he has a LONGER track record with multiple 30+ point seasons. Giroux was locked up mid season, and is still on pace for a 30 goal 82 point season.

Obviously MacArthur is below the level of Carter, and Eriksson (based on prior production) so he isn’t a $4 mill plus player… but he’s going to get more than Neal, Stewart, and Moulson have.

I’d say he’s earned between $3.25 and $3.75 mill… he’s likely to get around $3.5 mill on the basis of those contracts.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 6:29 PM EST reply actions  

oh forgot MacArthur's numbers

(07-08) 17 G, 31 pts (in 71 gp); (08-09) 16 G, 35 pts; (09-10) 19 G, 48 pts on track for 27 G, 67 pts…

Giroux and Eriksson are both on track for 30 goals and 82 points… MacArthur is obviously worth less than either of them… but he’s on track for more points than Neal (30 G, 55 pts), Stewart (27 G, 51 pts), and Moulson (38 G, 59 pts).

So in the end, he’s probably worth more than the latter 3, and less than the former 2.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

oh and

just as an aside, here is the list of players who scored over 25 goals and 60 points, but under 35 goals and 75 points when they were 25 in the NHL over the past 5 years. There’s only 9 of them in the NHL:

Ryan Kesler, Jason Spezza, Derek Roy, Eric Staal, Tomas Plekanec, Corey Perry, Rick Nash, Justin Williams, and Jeff Carter.

I don’t think Burke really needs to wax philisophical about how hard and difficult it is to read “flash in the pan” or “career year” players … what MacArthur is doing is sort of proving he’s in pretty elite fucking company.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

and before

anyone jumps on the whole pedigree line of thinking. MacArthur was a 3rd round draft pick, 74th overall… right around where Tomas Plekanec was drafted (71st overall).

Also if anyone feels like discussing prior production at earlier ages, I’d point out that all of those 9 received far more ice time than MacArthur did prior to this year. To wit:

Kesler averaged over 19 minutes a night for 2 seasons prior to posting those numbers.

Spezza averaged over 19 minutes a night for the 3 seasons prior to posting his as a 25 year old.

Roy averaged over 21 minutes a night as a 25 year old, and in the previous 3 years he went from 17 to 18 to 20+ minutes a night.

Staal averaged over 20 minutes a night in the previous 3 years (over 21 minutes a night in the previous 2)… he also produced his numbers in only 70 games, so he was a ppg player.

Plekanec averaged 15:59 in his previous season and only produced 20 goals and 47 points. In the year before that he averaged 13:15 and had 9 goals and 29 points (MacArthur like numbers!)

Perry is 25 this year, and his numbers are within only 63 games, so he’s above a ppg. As a 24 year old he had 27 goals and 76 points, but he was playing 21:04 a night, and 18:36 a night the season before that when he had 32 goals and 72 points.

Nash averaged 20:56 a night, and had averaged over 19 minutes a night for 3 consecutive seasons prior.

Williams averaged 20:51 a night, and had averaged 21:08 the previous year when he posted 31 goals and 76 points.

Carter averaged 19:18 a night, and had averaged 20:57 the year prior when he put up 46 goals and 84 points.

Obviously all of those guys play a lot, and it makes it MORE impressive that MacArthur is only averaging 17:15 a night.

If he can put up numbers like that while playing 2 minutes less a game and WAY less PP time than the other 9, I frankly question why he isn’t playing more.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

This would be a good fanpost Burtch. You’re overdue, get to it.

WE MISS YOU TOMAS

by daoust on Feb 28, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

do it steve, theres lots of mac haters out there

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually

have two half posts on the go… one analysing Gustavsson’s shit luck this season (even in the AHL), and another looking at the shooting position the Leafs have been working from for most of the year (which I’ve done half the work on)…

this MacArthur thing is something I did in about 20 minutes while procrastinating after work… I’ll write up something formally tomorrow evening while my students are writing their 2nd unit test.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Your research is excellent, as always. I think it would be a shame to lose MacA if it came down to a couple hundred thousand bucks. Guys like him are rare.

Be a Positive Pete not a Negative Nancy!

by theninjagreg on Feb 28, 2011 9:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I dont know Steve, I think the number will lie between what Burke’s argument is, MacA is a perennial 40pt player and what MacA is trying to sell himself as, a perennial 60 or 70pt player. I don’t think its fair to have comparisons unless the are a lot closer than the players you have mentioned. All those players seem to be quite different players with different skill sets than MacA. but numbers are comparable but I don’t think its all solely about the numbers. It is close but not enough to go out on a limb and say MacA will likely get around 3.5mil. I think somewhere around 2.65-2.85 might be closer but its more a guess than anything else. I think MacA is a great addition but can you and will you take the gamble that he is the $3.5M player or would you be conservative and pay low for shorter term to insure he is a $3.5M or maybe even higher value player?

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Mar 1, 2011 3:55 AM EST up reply actions  

So about $3M then? He’s not even close to being on the same level as Eriksson, Carter or Giroux.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 1, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I said

not close to Eriksson or Giroux… but I’d say $3+… I think he’s worth more than Moulson who signed a $3.133 mill extension this year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

sorry

Eriksson and Carter…

the problem with the Giroux argument also is… he signed his extension halfway through the year, so they could lock him up… I don’t know if he’d get more than that if he had waited till the off season and gone to arbitration.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Moulson scored 30 goals last year. MacArthur is on pace for 24.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 1, 2011 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Moulson

has never had over 20 assists… he`s on pace for 20 now… MacArthur has 29 already.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

You know as well as anyone that goals are worth more than assists.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 1, 2011 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

1.22 in fact.

so divide MacArthur`s assists by 1.22 and you still get 23… divide Moulson`s and you get 16…. combination works out to 47 for MacArthur, and 46 for Moulson.

More than $3.133 mill.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

and that`s assuming

MacArthur add`s zero assists… he`s got 29 already, he`s on pace for 38… which works out to 31 goal equivalent… so it`s actually 55 for MacArthur to 46 for Moulson…again… more than $3.13.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

If they sign him for under

$3.25 that`d be awesome… if he comes in under $3.5 nobody should really be that upset.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

and to be fair to MacArthur

most of his assists are 1st assists… not 2nd assists.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

he's no

Matt Stajan.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Matt Moulson was a UFA last year and is thus a poor comparable. That a 30 goal UFA merits $3.1M suggests a 24G RFA wouldn’t earn more.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 1, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions  

according to CapGeek

which is where I got his contract info, he was an RFA at the end of last year… they signed him to a $2.45 mill deal… and then signed him early this season to a $3.133 mill deal… I see now in looking though that you’re correct he’d have been UFA at the end of this season… my bad.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:23 AM EST up reply actions  

OK then

so yeah… $3 mill probably makes sense… somewhere between $3 and $3.25

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Whoa, finally shifting your range down without calling the comment stupid, ignorant, absurd, or giving a sarcastic/condescending answer.

Progress. Although I’m sure a response to this with will include at least one of the above…

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Mar 1, 2011 1:30 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you had to?

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 1:32 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well

there’s a difference between pointing out a mistake in my assumptions and numbers, than pointing out a mistake in my logic.

One disagrees with my starting point, the other disagrees with how I got from A to B.

I’m fine with adjusting my viewpoint if the information someone presents me with a reason that makes sense to me.

Saying arbitrarily that MacArthur isn’t worth X dollars because we don’t know what’s going to happen in the future strikes me as being a bit of a cop out.

 If you base it on comparables that are roughly the same age that are RFA in the past 2 years that makes sense… if you base it on 27-29 year old players who had career years well beyond where MacArthur is at in his career? Then it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:55 AM EST up reply actions  

AND

you’re right… I’ve been all of the above in this thread, largely out of frustration with things that have nothing to do with the conversation in here, so I’ll apologize to the rest of the realm in general.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions  

and on that note

I’ll take my angsty rudeness to bed with me… hope everyone got something out of it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope Mac waits for arbitration if Burke doesn’t give him a fair contract, especially after the contracts to defenceman like Komi.

by jeffgm on Feb 28, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

“I gave Komi a bad contract so I should give you one too”
???

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Feb 28, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Reread – I said “fair contract”

by jeffgm on Feb 28, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

what does komi’s contract have to do with macarthur’s?

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Feb 28, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

well

the same man offered Komi his contract that is preparing MacArthur’s… so… that’d be relevant.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I think I’m confused with what jeffgm is concerned with. If we get MacA for less than “fair” value why should we care? Are we the NHLPA? Will it be bad that there is an underpaid player, ESPECIALLY on a team that has to pay 4.5 mill for Komi?

As fans we shouldn’t be hoping macarthur holds out for more money. that makes no sense

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

ok here's my thing

I HOPE we sign him for less. What I’m trying to illustrate is what he’s actually worth… if we get him for less? great… if we get him for around there? fine… if we have to pay $3.75 and up… then we can be angry.

anything wrong with that?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

no, nothing wrong with that

and I didn’t figure that you WANTED him to go for more money. it was jeff’s comment – it’s as if he’s a mac fan and not a leafs fan. or more accurate, a burke hater more than anything else.

why would ANY real fan want players on their teams to be paid MORE

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Though Komi’s was signed in free agency with multiple bidder’s, thus driving up his price. While MacArthur is a RFA.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

There were no other bidders for Komisarek.

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Mar 1, 2011 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

there were no other bidders for Amrstrong either.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

do you just hate him cuz of his hockey skills or because everyone seems to irrationally be in love with him?

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 1:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Why do people presume I “hate” Armstrong?

He is what he is: a 3rd line player with an oversized contract.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 7:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Montreal

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 1:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah they bid 50 bucks

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Mar 1, 2011 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Montreal offered him a bigger contract.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I can’t tell if you’re trying to be funny or just obtuse. Either way, this exchange is over.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 1:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I hope Burke signs MacArthur to an unfair contract that Mac thinks is fair. That’s better for the team.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

nope

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

was there more to that

that didn’t post?

or are you just disagreeing for the sake of it?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

if you're arguing he isn't more productive than Stewart and Neal

don’t forget Stewart was lining up with Hejduk and Stastny (your favourite topic recently), and Neal was with Eriksson and Richards.

Despite how solid Kulemin and Grabovski have played this season, MacArthur is the leading scorer and puck distributor on the line (unlike Neal and Stewart or Moulson), and both are inferior from a production perspective to the Colorado and Dallas linemates of the other two.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

lastly

Neal averaged 18:12 a night last year, and Stewart averaged 16:42… so Stewart produced about the same in slightly less time (with better players), while Neal played more, produced less, and had better line mates.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he was just hoping for a hexa-burtch or greater, and didn’t get it. I was hoping too.

President of the Emotional Hedging club.
24/02/2011: I was there when Brett Lebda scored.

by Oafijev on Feb 28, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

lol

well fair enough. Anyway I’ve provided all the info I can find quickly without moving into advanced stats.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Burke won’t commit that kind of money to Mac on the chance that he’s playing above his talent level, much in the same way he did re-sign Dominic Moore after his season in 08/09. Burke has done a good job keeping down the costs for RFA re-signings.
On your list, only 3 players were signed for more than 3.2 million. Two of them, Eriksson and Carter, had established themselves as bonafide point producers for at least two seasons before signing new deals. The other Giroux, has been the best offensive player on arguably the best team in hockey this season, and was a highly touted prospect. MacArthur isn’t comparable to those three. Moulson is about as similar a case you can find on that list, and he got much less than 3.5 million.

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

didn’t re-sign Moore*

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Giroux was also lights-out in the playoffs last year.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

And Giroux is widely considered to be one of the best young players in the game. If Macarthur can get anything even close to what Giroux is making, his agent is a genius. I really can’t imagine Macarthur getting more than about $3.25 million.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

And Giroux is widely considered to be one of the best young players in the game.

Bingo. Perception of a player’s ability and ceiling can have a significant impact on contract negotiations.

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Another worthwhile point is that all of those players except Giroux had more goals than Macarthur is on pace for this year, which is 24. His pace has also slowed down considerably since his unsustainable start to the year. Goals are valued more highly than assists, generally, except in the case of elite playmakers like Brad Richards.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

no

he’s not on pace for 24… he’s on pace for 25… 24.7 rounds up to 25… also if you factor in his strength of opposition for the rest of the year, he’s actually probably going to score more… hence why Hockey-Reference has his adjusted number at 27 not 25.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

in arbitration

they can’t… unfortunately.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

and

I have Giroux making more than MacArthur so where is the problem here?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

$3.5 million is $250k less than Giroux makes. Like I said, if his agent can negotiate a deal that’s even close to what Giroux makes, he’s got an amazing agent.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

and $3.133 is

$617 K less than Giroux makes… are you saying Moulson is worth anything close to Giroux? I doubt you are…

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

also

you might want to think about who Giroux is playing with… Briere, Richards, Carter, Leino, Hartnell, and heck, Zherdev, JVR, and Versteeg… oh and Pronger, Timonen, Coburn, Carle, and Meszaros on the D side of things. Yeah he’s got lots of problems finding people to put the puck in the net for him.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Giroux isn’t just perceived to be awesome, kid is!!,

Like sacrificial virgins, we all burn in different ways. You are a fast explosion and I am the embers...

by TheBurnward on Mar 1, 2011 1:04 AM EST up reply actions  

as

are half their other forwards… I’m just saying his production might drop a tad if you played him with the Leafs.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

How awesome is Giroux? Did Philly draft him with the pick that would have come over in the Carter and a first for Kaberle deal? If it’s yes, don’t tell me, I don’t think I could handle that.

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Feb 28, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope, I believe that was the 2009 NHL draft. We could have had Paradis!!

Popped a Colboner - Certified Joe Colborne Fanboy

Follow me on Twittaarrr

by happiergilmore on Feb 28, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

we could have packaged our 1st rounder and the Flyers first rounder and possibly moved up to grab Duchene or Schenn

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

that’s some quality nonsensical hindsight speculation.

WE MISS YOU TOMAS

by daoust on Feb 28, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

the best kind of speculation

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed.

just imagine what we could have packaged duchene for this year? stamkos? crosby???

WE MISS YOU TOMAS

by daoust on Feb 28, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

jesus?

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

probably not, he has an NMC.

WE MISS YOU TOMAS

by daoust on Feb 28, 2011 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

and he's a goalie anyway

(he saves)

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope, Giroux was drafted in 2006.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh thank you baby jesus.

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Feb 28, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

YAAAAY TLUSTY!!!1

Popped a Colboner - Certified Joe Colborne Fanboy

Follow me on Twittaarrr

by happiergilmore on Feb 28, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Such a terrible pick.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Feb 28, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

At least he was a hit on the internet.

Popped a Colboner - Certified Joe Colborne Fanboy

Follow me on Twittaarrr

by happiergilmore on Feb 28, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

How about a comparison versus to sme leafs.
Grabo – 2.9M and Colby is 3M. Kule – still RFA is 2.3M.

Why is 2.7 to 3.2M out of line?

by jeffgm on Feb 28, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Who thinks that’s out of line? I think almost everyone except Burch agrees something in the neighbourhood of $3 million a year is the right figure.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

BB does lol

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

BB is trying to save every dollar against the cap he can, he is just doing his job, i doubt he ends up letting Mac walk over 250K

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 28, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

overpaying the likes of Komisarek, Lebda, and Armstrong means money has to be pinched elsewhere

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

How do you know what Burke thinks he’s worth? I haven’t seen any dollar figures announced publically, just a bit of speculation here and there.

by Draglikepull on Feb 28, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

what I fail to see

in any of this is ANYONE else doing a break down like I’m doing that compares him rationally and
comes up with how he deserves $2.7 million.

I see a lot of half baked arguments and statements with little to no correlation. Moore comparisons? I mean seriously… that’s idiotic.

I didn’t say he’s EQUIVALENT to Eriksson or Carter… in fact I said the EXACT fucking opposite. Which is why I said he deserves less.

I said they’re comparables. Players around the same age, signing RFA contracts, after big production years.

I valued MacArthur lower because his production and track record are inferior. This is Giroux’s first large point producing season, I don’t personally see a 47 point season as one to break the bank for $3.75 mill.

That being said, he deserves more than Neal and Stewart on the basis of overall production, line mates, and track record.

Nobody is explaining how those guys have more of a track record beyond saying “expectations”.

Frankly it’s all B.S. Last year when I explained EXPECTED production should influence Kulemin’s value you all argued that it had nothing to do with it… and all that mattered is what he’d done that season and years previous. Now you’re arguing the fucking opposite side.

It can’t work both ways. Either he gets paid rationally on the basis of his production, or he gets paid because NOBODY thinks he can sustain it long term. Either way I don’t see any reason why anyone would argue the latter… nobody has yet shown me a case of a player that suddenly produced over 65 points in a season playing over 17 minutes a game at the age of 25 who dropped off the face of the earth points wise a year or two later.

If you guys want to trot out some examples to justify your opinions hop to it… I’m waiting.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

oh and

Moore’s 41 points in 63 games with Toronto came when he was 28 years old… he wasn’t going to get a lot better.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

jumping into this late but...

Johnathan Cheechoo
Olli Jokinen
Seregei Samsanov
Mike Ribero

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

also, re-read this post. this is almost the angriest rant I’ve ever seen on PPP. not sure why so defensive based on the OP’s comment…

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe he bought a MacArthur jersey?

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

not really

I’m not angry… I just think it’s absurd.

Also to your point… How did Cheechoo “drop off the face of the earth”?

He produced a 56 goal 93 point season, followed by a 37 goal 69 point season (where he played 2:20 less a night)… then his ice time was reduced further (when Heatley was added) and he played 16:36 and then 15:19 over the next two years producing 23 goals and 37 points, and then 12 goals and 29 points.

When Olli Jokinen was 25 he produced a 26 goal 58 point season, a year after producing a 36 goal 65 point season as a 24 year old. After the lockout he was 27 and he produced 38 goals and 89 points, then at 28 he produced 39 goals and 91 points, and at 29 he produced 34 and 71 points. Yes he’s tailing off now… but the guy is 32 years old and he still has 44 points in 61 games. He lost a year due to the lockout but he doesn’t really prove your point.

Sergei Samsonov was cruelly destroyed by wrist injuries. He went from producing 29 goals and 75 points as a 22 year old to 29 goals and 70 points in 74 games as a 23 year old to 11 points in 8 games as a 24 year old. He was never the same after his 24 year old season. As a 25 year old he only had 40 points in 58 games (still pro rates to a 57 point season, at 26 he produced 53 points in 74 games (59 point season pro-rated). Then his career got screwed by multiple trades to Edmonton, then Montreal, then Chicago, and then in Carolina at 30 he had a mini resurgence of a 48 point season two years ago.

Mike Ribeiro is the worst example… he’s currently 30 and is on track to produce a 67 point season as a 2nd line centre. He had 53 points last year in 66 games as a 29 year old. Year before that he had 78 points in 82 as a 28 year old, Year before that as a 27 year old he had 83 points in 76 games.

He only had 51 points at the age of 25, and only 59 points at the age of 26. He got BETTER after 25.. not worse.

Wtf man? If you’re going to argue the point at least look this shit up.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not really making a point, other than that production doesn’t always trend upwards. You’re so fixated on how old a guys is (or how old he’s not). Sometimes guys have a good season or two. Then they “regress to the mean” as everyone around here says. What makes you so confident that we’re not just looking at two years of abnormally high production out of Mac?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

no that's not "regression towards the mean"

there’s not some “mean” player skill level that players regress to.

You also threw up at least 2 examples of players that actually got BETTER not worse after 25.

I have no idea how what you’re adding is relevant to the argument.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

again

in reference to what I posted… what makes you think we are?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

what makes you think we’re not?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

see above.

now answer my question… which is the negative… and as far as I can tell seems far harder to prove.

There really aren’t a lot of examples of players that have 1 good year offensively at 25 and then flame out.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

You could have gone with

Brad Boyes… but I don’t think he’s a one shot wonder either personally… and I bet most people don’t what with his “pedigree”.

People just have a hard time giving MacArthur any credit.

Yet somehow Datsyuk and Zetterberg deserve it despite being drafted WAY later…. or Grabovski – 5th rounder?

Why is MacArthur so far beyond accepting as a good player?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

why is Grabovski

someone people “love” and MacArthur a “one off” on a “career year”… grabovski is having a career year also… why do we not talk about him as a one off?

or Kulemin? whose shooting percentage is like 3% higher than his career number???

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

we can’t all get on the band-wagon as early as you, Steve. Some of us don’t have your prescient ability. or we’re all just really really dumb. can’t you accept that?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

no see

this is ignorance.

It’s not really the same thing.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

because everyone who doesn’t agree with you is ignorant?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't recall saying that

but sure if it helps you feel more “smug”… I’m pretty sure that’s the word you use.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t really have a stake in this argument. I’m just in the camp that would rather underpay some guy than end up with an albatross.

I also find it somewhat amusing that you seem to be convinced that you know more about the business of hockey than BB, since everything coming out of the MSM suggests Burke thinks he’s worth less than $3 Mil.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

how is

$3.5 mill a year an albatross? Why do you think that’s overpaying? I’m not seeing any LOGIC here.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

and I’m sure you agree with Burke’s signings of Komisarek and Lebda? Do you think the man’s a super genius when it comes to identifying free agent value?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

no, but I’m not really into speculating what a player is worth because I know my limitations.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

if you say so.

You seem pretty happy touting the abilities of Jonas Gustavsson last I looked.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

or at least

defending his lack of performance.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, because that’s a domain I feel comfortable in (i.e., watching games and assessing whether a player was effective, as opposed to reading a box-score and making the same judgement).

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

ahhh

the ever present “watch the games” argument… because obviously I don’t do that.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

obviously. ;)

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

You guys should save this for your Even Stephen post ;)

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m not too interested in that any more.

in fact, I don’t even have a horse in this current race. I was just jumping into defend some arguments I thought were reasonable, and maybe goad Steve a little.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Mar 1, 2011 8:11 AM EST up reply actions  

FWIW, speculating, is different than observing. It’s pretty easy to look at a guy like Phaneuf and say he’s overpaid. It’s a lot harder to look at at guy like Mac and assess what he’ll be worth in 3 years…

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

his shooting percentage

isn’t abnormally high… he’s not firing an abnormally high number of shots… he isn’t getting a ridiculous amount of playing time… he doesn’t have an absurdly high PDO number.

There’s nothing that indicates what he’s doing is unsustainable.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

LONG LIVE KING MACARTHUR!! DEATH TO THE NONBELIEVERS!!

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Cheechoo had some groin/hernia problems that really sapped his skating ability.

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I like to think that he had some “no longer playing with Thornton” problems that really sapped his scoring ability.

President of the Emotional Hedging club.
24/02/2011: I was there when Brett Lebda scored.

by Oafijev on Mar 1, 2011 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Well if he hadn’t gotten injured and lost his skating ability (which was marginal to begin with) he might have kept on playing with Thornton.

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Mar 1, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

um, also Johnathan Cheechoo, after scoring 93 points one season under the age of 25, scored 37 in 69 two years later. Now he’s in the AHL. I think that’s the definition of falling off the face of the earth.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really

there’s very obvious reasons for his decline… he lost minutes to Heatley, and then he had injury issues that hurt his skating which wasn’t strong to begin with.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

He didn’t lose minutes to Heatley, he was part of that trade. His post-hernia skating was abysmal.

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

hmm

you’re right he was part of that trade… he lost minutes to setoguchi… thanks for the correction.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah Cheechoo went from playing on the first line with Thornton to the third line with Mike Grier. That will kill anybody’s productivity, add in the groin injuries and its not much of a surprise that his production fell off the table.

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

but why did he get demoted to the 3rd? probably because he wasn’t playing very well….

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Injuries, mainly. He couldn’t really skate after the double hernia.

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Also Setoguchi played his way onto the first line.

...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...

by My Poor Friend Me on Feb 28, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

and there’s obvious reasons why none of these things will affect Mac?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

injuries?

we’re not paying players because they might tear an ACL now?

Jee… I didn’t know about that … we should probably lower every player’s salary by half just in case.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Just shows that you never now what’ll happen.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Players between the ages of 20 & 27, playing between their 2nd and 5th years in the league, scoring between 55 and 75 points in a season, and have never come within 12 points of their highest total before or since:
Shawn Horcoff – 05/06 (age 27) 73 points
Jason Pominville – 07/08 (age 25) 80 points
Jarret Stoll – 05/06 (age 23) 68 points
Devin Setoguchi – 08/09 (age 22) 65 points
Wojtek Wolski – 09/10 (age 23) 65 points
Dustin Penner – 09/10 (age 27) 63 points
Ales Kotalik – 05/06 (age 27) 62 points
David Booth – 08/09 (age 24) 60 points

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

that actually looks like a really good list of comparables for mac.

way to be LOGICAL birky!

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

More players who put up outlier years over 55 pts:

Rico Fata 03/04 (age 24) 55 points
David Legwand 06/07 (age 26) 63 points
Dainius Zubrus 05/06 (age 28) 57 points
Marco Sturm 07/08 (age 29) 56 points

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Feb 28, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Fata

is the only one that did it before 25… and Legwand’s seasonal ppg rates are kind of relevant here – he hit 0.75 as a 22 year old. 0.81 at 26, 0.68 at 27.

Those pro rate to 62, 66, and 56 point seasons… which are all above your 55 plateau.

And seriously? Marco Sturm at 29? he’s 25 guys… 29 is 4 years away. If he peaks in 4 years are you worried about that?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

on Marco Sturm… he put up 59 points when he was 27 and then 56 when he was 29… how does this fit your argument?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

but what if he peaks at 25?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

he might.

a lot of players do.

I’m not paying him for his potential…. I’m paying him for what I expect to continue… I don’t think he’s going to morph into an 80 point player… if I did I’d say pay him over $4 mill.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not paying him for his potential…. I’m paying him for what I expect to continue

How are these not the same?

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Hm

I’m splitting hairs here… but when I used the word potential I’m talking room for improvement… rather than sustained current level of play.

I think MacArthur may have achieved his potential… and I expect him to keep producing.

I don’t expect him to improve a lot more… I just expect him to keep up the good work.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

ok problem

20 to 27? That’s a huge range… you’re basically covering peak production and rookies… you’re also bringing in guys that are still under 26 (Setoguchi and Wolski are only 24, Booth is only 26) and guys who have had serious injury problems (Booth concussions)

I’ll grant you Stoll and Horcoff. Although in the case of Stoll he’s never played similar minutes to that year since he put up 68 points. Horcoff put up 73 points as a 27 year old and then 3 years in a row over 50 points… despite not coming within 12 points, I’d pay $3.5 mill for that sort of production. I’d say age is relevant in Horcoff’s case though.

Penner was a college UFA and he only reached his peak LAST YEAR at the age of 27.

Guys peaking later tend to not put up as many points.

As for Kotalik… he didn’t have the lockout year at 26, and his production more than doubled at 27… he peaked late also. But that year off doesn’t really mean we have any idea what would have happened there.

And how is a bunch of guys peaking at 27 comparable to Mac peaking at 25?

The only guy on that list that really peaked earlier and has had a soft “prime” is Stoll.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

you guys are

REALLY casting the net wide on this one.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

And how is a bunch of guys peaking at 27 comparable to Mac peaking at 25?

This is the point that you seem to be completely ignorant or obtuse about. Age isn’t a magical thing. Some guys peak at 22. Others at 32. Others at 25. Is 25 more like 27 or 23? Who knows? Even if you can say it’s more like 23, is Mac’s 25 more like 27? Who knows?

You have some sort of perverse obsession with age bordering on pedophilia.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

no but

players rarely drop off a cliff at 26 if they’re productive at 25.

You’re the one arguing there’s a good chance of this happening.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

like

we should be REALLY worried that he’s peaked and will never replicate anything close to these numbers.

Usually players that peak earlier produce more … it’s pretty rare for a guy to peak at 21 and suddenly suck at 25. The Jarret Stoll example from earlier is actually really weird.

It’s not likely that a 25 year old player that is productive offensively is going to be shit in 2 years… that just isn’t the norm.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Steve, we’ve danced to this tune before so I’ll keep it brief.

MacArthur is an RFA. The Leafs should squeeze him for every penny in savings they can.

His PPG rates, chronologically, 2006-11
.37
.41
.44
.43
.43
.76

See if you can spot the outlier.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

he’ll note that macarthur never had the minutes he’s getting this year or the linemates

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

He’s only up 2 mins over his career norm (15 to 17 atoi).

At that rate, his ppg should be about .5 not .76

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

as an aside, I think I’d also say that macarthur benefits more from grabbo and kulemin than they benefit from him. That stretch when kessel played on the top line to get him out of his funk seemed to work, while macarthur seemed to enter a funk at the exact same time

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

i recalled that he scored a goal the very next game and was pretty productive until lupul came along on his line for a bit

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Mar 1, 2011 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

ah

but based on the logic we’re using, their ppg rates have jumped as much as his has… so I’m not sure we can argue that one way or the other.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

MacArthur

p/60 rates over the past few years:

2010-11: 2.17
2009-10: 1.54
2008-09: 1.34
2007-08: 1.82

G/60:
2010-11: 0.88
2009-10: 0.62
2008-09: 0.82
2007-08:0.91

So is that a hugely drastic increase from his past numbers? I don’t think it is particularly. He’s getting more assists, because he syncs up well with Kulemin and Grabovski… I don’t know why that would suddenly vanish.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions  

unless

as I said… you think Grabovski and Kulemin’s numbers are unsustainable.

MacArthur’s goal numbers aren’t out of line with his past totals.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

And

go look at his minutes played… and his p/60 rates and see what you come back with.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

spot the outlier:
1.34
1.54
2.17

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah

I just posted them above… and if you look at it in more granular detail, you’ll see his goal numbers aren’t that weird, it’s his assists that have jumped. Primarily 1st assists.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

and

honestly, last year might end up being the outlier… traded mid season to Atlanta? that can’t have helped him much.

As he said at the early part of the year, when he isn’t effective it’s because he isn’t shooting the puck, and his shot totals dropped last year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Last year: You correctly predicted Kulemin would improve his offense. However, you were completely wrong about his value, seeing as both the Leafs and Kulemin (& agent) agreed to a deal worth 2.35m. Obviously no one besides you thought he should be getting paid for uncertain future production.
I don’t see how it’s any different this year with MacArthur. There is a legitimate concern that he might be having a career season. He was never a big-time (solid, but not elite) scorer in the WHL, never an elite scorer in the AHL, and was not a big scorer in his first two full seasons in the NHL.

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

here’s the thing. I don’t care if you think MacArthur is going to score 70 points or even 100 points next season. The goal of every single GM should be to get RFA players extended for as little money as possible. Ignoring the fact that you list of comparables is at least half crap, why on Earth or you advocating the Leafs sign him at why you believe is market value? If the Leafs have reservations about MacArthur’s talent, then they are taking on a lot of risk by signing him to that kind of a deal.

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

are you advocating*

Negative. I am a meat popsicle.

by birky on Feb 28, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

half crap?

I’m comparing him to other RFAs with similar numbers from the past 2 years… as I thought the NHL requires… how is that crap? Also… wtf would make those NOT market value?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

and I'm saying what I expect he'll sign for

not what I think he SHOULD sign for.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

what do you guys think of as

OVER payment? is $3.5 mill really an OVER payment? Just because he’s getting around what his numbers say he’s worth as an RFA?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Arbitrator’s gonna give him 3.5!

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

There is a legitimate concern that he might be having a career season. He was never a big-time (solid, but not elite) scorer in the WHL, never an elite scorer in the AHL, and was not a big scorer in his first two full seasons in the NHL.

This is the issue. Burtch seems to have a very egalitarian view about NHLers. He doesn’t really seem to care about their pedigree.

Most people, on the other hand, believe that players who are great at one level are more likely to be great at another level than those who were only mediocre at earlier levels.

The fact that his point production this season is so far outside of his past performance gives us pause. I think this is a perfectly reasonable to question what he’ll be able to do in the future….

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

really

you think I ignore pedigree? That just goes to show you don’t read much of what I’ve typed on here about other players in the past.

Also as for MacArthur not producing in junior… his draft year was 2003. In 2002-03 as a 17 year old he produced 75 points in 70 games. That was the year Lupul had 78 in 50 games.

The next year he had 75 in 62 games, and then the year after that he had 74 in 58. He was a pretty decent scorer in Junior.

Here are Ryan Getzlaf’s numbers from Junior. 68 points in 70 games as a 17 year old (less than MacArthur), then 75 in 49 games (more than MacArthur), then 54 in 51 games (less than MacArthur). Jee I guess Getzlaf sucked too then?

In the AHL he produced 158 points in 163 games… or right around the pace we see Nazem Kadri producing at… I guess one could argue (as I did on the weekend) that a lot of ppg players in the AHL don’t pan out… but in this case MacArthur is producing in the NHL so I don’t know why someone would do that.
He had no ICE TIME in his first 2 NHL seasons.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

again

I want to know why we aren’t doing this with grabovski and kulemin.

Kulemin in particular has numbers even MORE out of whack with his past production, but nobody is saying “jee he’s going to suck next year”… why is that?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

and if you go and say

“pedigree” again… I’ll say … great… so his prior NHL seasons = meaningless because of pedigree… but MacArthur’s prior NHL seasons = meaningful because of lack of pedigree… we’ll just switch the whole thing around… that way it can be BOTH… they don’t matter if he’s got pedigree, but they do if he doesn’t!…

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Lots of top scorers

in junior never score in the NHL… and lots of top scorers in the NHL weren’t dominant in junior… Datsyuk is a good example of this… or Franzen… or Patrick Sharp? Who yanno never was a ppg player in the NCAA, or in the AHL.

I guess all the people who wanted us to try and trade for Patrick Sharp earlier in the year were unaware of his shitty pedigree. 3rd round, 95th overall (worse than MacArthur) worse production in College than Mac had in Junior, worse production in the AHL than MacArthur had in the AHL. Didn’t post his career high in points until probably this year at the age of 29… we obviously should trade MacArthur for an aging Blackhawk who is so “skilled”.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

at 25

Patrick Sharp had 20 goals and 35 points. Now he’s on pace for 45 or so goals and 80 or so points. We should probably expect most players to get shitty and worse as they age.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

which is why I guess

all of you would recommend trading grabovski? he’s 27 and old… and this is his career year after all…. we obviously didn’t maximize value. I bet we’d have gotten a pick or two for him.

We should also strongly consider dumping Schenn and Kulemin who are only bound to get worse from here on out.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

You don’t need to create ridiculous strawmen. It really detracts from the rest of your case.

by Papa Squid on Feb 28, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not a ridiculous strawman

it’s actually reductio ad absurdum.

If we don’t pay players because we think it’s likely they’ll get shittier as they age… or they’re having peak seasons… then we should get out while the getting is good on all of those guys.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's face it

Schenn was never a point producer… we should ditch him.

Kulemin? So what if he led the KHL in goals one year… he couldn’t make the Russian Olympic team last year, so he’s probably not a future super star.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Grabovski is 27

and he’s a 5th rounder so his pedigree is shit… he also has never put up goals like this… so obviously he’s going to suck in the future… I don’t know why we didn’t trade him when we could maximize value.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

none of it is convincing

because people don’t WANT to be convinced… cognitive dissonance is a bitch ain’t it?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

MacArthur comes in at $1.1 mill

and everyone loves the shit out of that deal… which was frankly shit luck because nobody at the end of last year thought he could be productive. Now he’s lighting shit up and Ron Wilson has some magic going with him and Grabovski and Kulemin…

and a bunch of people are suddenly worried that’s going to implode? 1 year wonder? etc. Why is that? Do we expect grabovski and kulemin to suck suddenly? Because if the guy leading the line in primary assists suddenly sucks, odds are they’re going to also.

In which case, why the fuck are we keeping any of them?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

and even IF

he’s productive because Grabosvki and Kulemin make him productive… what difference does it make?

Keep him and let them stay productive.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with what you’re saying Steve, but including Luke Schenn in ‘give him up because he doesn’t score points’ really makes you look stupid, that’s not what everyone else is arguing about.

"Ironic isn't it, that the very strings I played then are made from the very gut of the animal this song is about" - David McGahan

by PKSube on Feb 28, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

this is my point

nobody in their right mind would ever argue that.

But a large group want to convince themselves that MacArthur’s production at 25 years old is unsustainable and he doesn’t deserve to be paid for it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

why can't we be friends... why can't we be friends...

why can’t we be friends, why can’t we be friends!!!

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t be silly. No one is bringing up Kulemin and Grabbo because their contracts aren’t up this spring… but if they were, yeah, I’m sure people would be worried that Grabbo is peaking this year or that Kulemin’s point production has doubled.

by Papa Squid on Feb 28, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

this is probably the most important point. we’re not talking about grabbo/kuli’s contracts because we don’t need to yet.

and to the contrary, I’ve read many threads discussing why we should or shouldn’t trade grabbo

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I realize this… but I don’t think the majority of those arguing with me are of the opinion that Grabovski and Kulemin are about to fall off a cliff from a production perspective.

Maybe I’m wrong.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

really?

I don’t think I was wrong about his value at all… I think he’s underpaid and when he hits free agency again he’s getting a huge raise.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you need to separate value from remuneration.

The vast majority of RFAs with box cars similar to Kulemin were paid $1.7 to $2.5M. Kulemin landed right in the middle of that spectrum.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

ok

so what’s wrong with my comparables? That’s what led to all of this.

I posted a list of comparable point producers from the past 2 seasons… and came up with $3.5 mill.

Then other people wanted to get into pedigree and called my list of comparables “crap” which makes bucketfuls of sense when he actually is producing MORE points than 3 of them and LESS than the other 3… thus putting him smack in the middle, which is where I put the salary expectation.

Illogical it wasn’t.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m specifically speaking to your over-valuation of Kulemin during last year’s round of RFA negotiations.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

ah

well I will admit to that as an over valuation on my part… I was predicting performance, which he’s continued towards, but obviously with the basis of RFA deals being prior performance I was off the mark in looking at future performance.

If that’s how it is though, and looking at it through that lens, I don’t see how you can argue MacArthur isn’t worth more.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Both sides are perfectly defensible.

As a Leaf fan, I hope Burke plays hardball, uses all the leverage possible, and gets MacArthur inked cheap.

If a value contract can’t be had. I have no problem trading MacArthur’s RFA rights, doing a sign and trade or hoping someone submits an offersheet.

Bitter Leaf Fan: Skepticism, not cynicism.

by mf37 on Mar 1, 2011 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

ok

so Moulson, the guy who has never registered over 20 assists in a season, and is on track for 20 this year, and prior to last year’s contract had all of 29 games played with 6 goals and 4 assists for 10 points is your closest comparable to a guy that had played over 200 games entering this season with 44 goals and 44 assists for 88 points… who already has 29 assists this year and is on track for 38 assists…

MOULSON is your closest comparable? wtf man? are you huffing glue?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok

Moulson is a low number because he has no puck distribution numbers…. he doesn’t make the guys around him a lot better.

MacArthur is the leading point producer on the team, and he’s going to score almost 15 more points than Moulson this year.

His closest comparables from a point perspective would be Neal and Stewart, but he has a LONGER track record than either of them, and he’ll get more points than either of them.

This b.s. about comparing him to Moore is ridiculous. Moore produced 13 goals and 45 points in 81 games.

MacArthur ALREADY has 19 goals and 48 points in 63 games. Don’t be insulting to the guy and compare his production to Moore… that’s just fucking dumb.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow this got really hectic. I gotta say i agree with Mr. Burtch though. The comparable players and their salaries makes sense, and there no good counter arguments. VRN has a good point that it is in BB’s interest to pay him the least amount possible. But BB would be stupid to let him walk for .5 million or so.

Also, i am not sure what WE’RE YELLING ABOUT!

LOUD NOISES

Be a Positive Pete not a Negative Nancy!

by theninjagreg on Mar 1, 2011 12:13 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Were those guys all RFAs?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Glad I didn’t miss much at school.

Also glad JFM is out of the organization, this mean we can sign Kenny Ryan?

Popped a Colboner - Certified Joe Colborne Fanboy

Follow me on Twittaarrr

by happiergilmore on Feb 28, 2011 7:17 PM EST reply actions  

He’s not putting up anywhere near stellar numbers but I liked him in the rookie tourney.

Popped a Colboner - Certified Joe Colborne Fanboy

Follow me on Twittaarrr

by happiergilmore on Feb 28, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok here is another Fan Post topic

With all the Moves with the Trade Deadline – With Penner going to the Kings, Versteeg to the FLYERS, Stillman to the Hurricanes, Kovi to the Penguins. Ect Ect. ……

So what are you NEW modified Stanley Cup Predictions. What do you think the Vegas Odds should be now?

Who got Stronger and Better and who got weaker and who was Asleep at the wheel ?

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson

by FLYERROB on Feb 28, 2011 9:38 PM EST reply actions  

Flyers FTW.

They’re still the deepest team… their goaltending is still a problem though… Boston has a decent chance of coming out of the East also.

Kings, San Jose, and Detroit will probably beat eachother up in the West.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

What does FTW mean ?

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson

by FLYERROB on Feb 28, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

For the win

Being a Leafs fan makes me bipolar.

by BlindSight on Feb 28, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

man I feel like a dope, – Thanks.

Ok and what does Rec’d mean and what does Kab’d mean ?

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson

by FLYERROB on Feb 28, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

rec’d means you approve (i.e. recommend) a person’s post so you click “actions” on the post to give the person a gold star.

kab’d means rec’d but we say it here because we love kaberle.

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

we use all kinds of alternatives for Rec’d:

Crabb’d
Zig’d
Reim’d
….

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I always thought it meant “fuck the world”

by Papa Squid on Feb 28, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

same with me thats why I asked.

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson

by FLYERROB on Feb 28, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

It does.

Like sacrificial virgins, we all burn in different ways. You are a fast explosion and I am the embers...

by TheBurnward on Mar 1, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I am not sure about our goaltending being a BIG problem – Antti Niemi has his name on the Stanley CUP – Can you believe that ? Antti effen Niemi.

If he can do it, so can boosh or BOB

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson

by FLYERROB on Feb 28, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

It all comes down to goaltending in the playoffs. If you can get hot at the right time, you’re golden.

Being a Leafs fan makes me bipolar.

by BlindSight on Feb 28, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree – However – Niemi wasnt hot at all last year, His D in front of him was solid and Hot. – We are hoping that our D is good enough and Besides – Boucher got hurt last year and they had to bring in Leighton – Boucher was getting VERY HOT against NJ and BOSTON before getting hurt.

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson

by FLYERROB on Feb 28, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Niemi

has some pretty solid numbers in San Jose right now

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

IIRC he had a rough start with them, but that might be him just getting used to his new team, and their playing style.

Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go

by PassivelyTruculent on Feb 28, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Look, if it's true

that you need at least 400 shots on a goalie before you even begin to speculate about whether they’re good or not, how many shots does a goalie see in the whole playoffs? If the other team averages 30 shots a game and there are 6 games a series, and you go four series in, then that’s 720 shots… An objectively good goaltender is likely to do better than an objectively meh one over that small a sample size, but not a WHOLE LOT more likely. They’ll probably win you an extra 1 or 2 games over the whole playoffs… which is great, don’t get me wrong, but probably not the single deciding factor. Goalie LUCK, on the other hand, will matter enormously.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Feb 28, 2011 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Niemi has now faced

2222 regular season shots, and has a .914 SV%. He has also faced 645 playoff shots with a .910 SV%.

He’s not amazing… but he’s better than Leighton (2850 Reg Season shots .902 SV% – 371 playoff shots .916 SV%)… overall Leighton is worse than Niemi.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Feb 28, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Granted

all I was saying is that a goalie’s “true” save percentage will be an important predictor of success in the regular season (big sample sizes mean that your overall performance will tend to be close to the underlying “true” odds), while in the playoffs “true” save percents will be a relatively poor guide to performance as the sample size is too small. Luck probably swamps skill as the predictor of goalie playoff success (in ONE playoff series)

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Mar 1, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

what about

4?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 1, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Mirtle thinks it's just a matter of time to re-sign Clarkey Mark
@mirtle
James Mirtle
I get the sense Leafs and MacArthur will come to terms eventually. A negotiation that will take a while but where compromise is possible.

I figured the same thing, but good to hear it from some one closer to the situation.

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 28, 2011 10:20 PM EST reply actions  

What's more riveting

The Leafs boardroom? Or that channel of the swiss chalet chickens cookingl? I admit, I spent half an hour watching each today… :S

I think I prefer the rotisserie channel!

by Papa Squid on Feb 28, 2011 10:24 PM EST reply actions  

haha. I took my grandfather to Swiss Chalet today, and they actually put that channel on the tvs. It was kind of meta.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 28, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

This is brilliant. I could watch these chickens rotate all day.

by Papa Squid on Feb 28, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

is it a continuous loop? does someone take the chickens out and put fresh ones in? what if they get overcooked!

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Now, this technology is new to me, but…I’m pretty sure that’s Homer Simpson in the oven, rotating slowly. His body temperature has risen to over 400 degrees — he’s literally stewing in his own juices!

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Feb 28, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Fantastic. Yeah, it’s on loop… man, I could really use some Swiss Chalet right around now.

by Papa Squid on Feb 28, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I am a bit disappointed MacArthur didn’t get traded today but I guess if he asks for too much money Burke could always trade him this summer, it’s really not a deal that had to be done today.

I’m very happy the Leafs didn’t trade either of the 1st round picks, chances are they will be traded in the off season but until then I’m going to revel in the novelty of having multiple 1st round picks.

by Brad Ackerson on Feb 28, 2011 11:07 PM EST reply actions  

Just saying...

Everyone needs to CHILL THE FUCK OUT!! Mac will be back, at a reasonable price…or Burke lets him walk or trades his rights.

Like sacrificial virgins, we all burn in different ways. You are a fast explosion and I am the embers...

by TheBurnward on Mar 1, 2011 1:12 AM EST reply actions  

hahaha

we needed this

elephant shell

by sportsfan2 on Mar 1, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I wont believe a word until I see some advanced statistics

"Ironic isn't it, that the very strings I played then are made from the very gut of the animal this song is about" - David McGahan

by PKSube on Mar 1, 2011 5:30 AM EST up reply actions  

keystrokes/60 was up 90% last night.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Mar 1, 2011 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

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