20 and 11 - Dustin Penner and Clarke MacArthur
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 12:00 PM EST
in The Noon Number
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Yesterday's biggest trade came when the Edmonton Oilers moved Dustin Penner to the Los Angeles Kings for Colten Teubert and some magic beans. Needless to say, Oilers fans worth listening to are not pleased with the trade. The main complaint is that Steve Tambellini and Kevin Lowe are incompetent. It's hard to argue when you look at how they turned the centre piece of the Chris Pronger trade into nothing or when the alleged general manager doesn't seem to be aware that the main piece in his latest deal might be struggling this year.
The main reason these guys will get to see the fruits of the ruin they've wrought? The compliant local media that seemingly cannot do anything more than parrot the company line. The second reason? Because they've followed the conventional wisdom that we've heard for so long: "Chicago tanked for a few years and won a Cup! Same with Pittsburgh!" There's never any discussion about the flip side of the rebuilding coin which only the clued in fans ever note. For every Pittsburgh there's a New York Islanders or Atlanta Thrashers. For every Chicago there's a St. Louis, a Columbus Blue Jackets or a Florida Panthers who are once more rebuilding. The main goal of a rebuild is not rocket science:
Keep your good players and add more. It' really pretty straight forward. Trading everyone over 21 guarantees that the team will be worse and also guarantees that those guys who are still around will get out as soon as they can.
- Black Dog Hates Skunks
Dustin Penner will be 28 years old when next season starts. If you type his name into the search bar on Copper N Blue you'll find the most extensive collection of writing proving that he is a valuable player. He would have continued to draw the toughest assignments and provide cover for the younger wingers while they develop into NHLers. By all accounts, he was a great guy. Joey Moss was apparently devastated by the trade. Worst of all, knowing that Penner has another year on his contract, it sounds like Tambellini didn't even bother finding out if Penner would want to stick around and help the rebuild. So where's the Noon Number come into play? Over the past four seasons, only 20 wingers have scored more goals than Dustin Penner. Shorten that window to this season and last and that number shrinks to 11.
How does that apply to Clarke MacArthur? Brian Burke could have flipped him for a package of futures. There's little doubt about that. However, rather than bow to the prevailing conventional wisdom and make the trade, Burke is going to use his time to try to keep a player who is good now rather than try to get more magic beans. Burke is in the process of negotiating a new deal with a player that has repeatedly said that he wanst to stay in Toronto and that he recognizes the opportunity he has been given. Burke has also stated that he's glad to go to arbitration. The latter would give the Leafs an entire year to evaluate MacArthur, negotiate a new contract if he wants, or, if he still cannot make a deal, then move him for assets. Unlike Penner, if he's ultimately moved the Leafs will still get one more productive year out of him.
Burke has sifted a lot of coal over the past two and a half years and it's good to see that he's taking the time to figure out if that shiny object is a diamond. There was no need for him to make a knee-jerk move for the sake of making moves or to sacrifice common sense on the altar of conventional wisdom.
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Brilliant
Great post, bro.
I thank the Lord above I’m not an Oilers fan. Here’s hoping Toronto’s rebuild blows Edmonton’s out the goddamn frame.
by eyebleaf on Mar 1, 2011 12:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
If that happens, maybe we’ll finally rid ourselves of Tamblowe.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Tambi drafted “the saviors” so he will probably get more leeway than he should
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
It can’t be a coincidence that their 4 best prospects form the acronym H.O.P.E…
Truculligerestosterugnacity.
And that is EXACTLY what will happen and what most Oilers fans argue too.
One guy say Edmonton was in year one of their rebuild.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'll second that
Consider this. Burke passed on poor offers for Kaberle during the last trade window, and this year landed arguably more than the Oilers did for Penner even though Penner’s arguably better and still has a year left on a reasonable deal.
The ultimate test will be whether Burke can make it through UFA season without a dumb signing but with the exception of quibbling about whether Versteeg should have been unceremoniously dumped overboard, I’m pretty satisfied with his performance over the past month.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
2 1sts, a 3rd, possibly a 2nd, Colborne, Gardiner, Lupul for Versteeg, Beauch and Kaberle. I’m very happy with the GM right now
Fairweather fans can go to hell
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Sometimes you have to have to sink to the gutter before you can reach for the stars
Does anyone doubt that Burke would NOT have made those deals had we been in say, 7th or 8th place this year?
He would have held onto all 3, and tried to add at the deadline. If nothing else, this year of miserable hockey has set the rebuild back on a more “traditional” course.
No more retooling, this is a full on rebuild.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 1, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
the only way Burke keeps all three of those players is if the Leafs are guarenteed to make the playoffs and make a good run of it
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
make a good run of it
I think this needs to be emphasized more often. Just squeaking into the playoffs isn’t good enough, especially if you’re bound to get blown out in the first round.
I’m glad Burke believes this too.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
Does anyone doubt that Burke would NOT have made those deals had we been in say, 7th or 8th place this year?
I would be willing to bet (and argue) over extreme amounts of money that Burke would have made the exact same deals, unless we had such a gross overperformance that this team looked to be Stanley Cup contenders (read: Was never gonna happen).
This is where a witty signature might go.
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It blows my mind that when Burke was acquiring young talent last year, everyone said “we need a full rebuild!” and now that he’s doing the exact same thing a little differently, everyone is saying “thank god he listened to me!”
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HE DIDN’T DRAFT ELITE TALENT! ITS NOT THE SAME! THAT MEANS IT WONT WORK!
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
BUT NOW HE’S GOT ALL THESE GOOD PROSPECTS, AND HE TRADED VERSTEEG FOR JUST PICKS. THANK GOD HE’S SEEN THE LIGHT!
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To be fair, last year Burke traded away two firsts and signed Komi/Beauch to big money, long-term deals. I think he’s demonstrated much better patience and long-range thinking this year.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
he signed komi and beauch 2 years ago
=3
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I’m looking at that as part of the ’09/10 season. I include the Lebda/Armstrong signings as part of this season.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Considering just how movable Beauch was, I don’t think the intention was to keep either Beauch or Komisarek around for long. We were much more shallow we were in our defensive prospect pool two years ago, and I would think the idea was to get some veterans in to shelter in the event that we could only get very young assets. Now, Komisarek has become unmovable – bad luck – but I don’t think either signing was the product of impatience.
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We’ll have to agree to disagree.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
I find it hard to consider the Beauch deal anything but excellent. He was brought in for no acquisition cost but cap space, played well, and brought back at least one good long term assets (Gardiner). Turning nothing (well, cap space) into something young and qualified, to me, is exactly what a UFA signing should do for a rebuilding team.
Komisarek, and his deal of course, is the inverse of everything good. Unless he suddenly decides he’s better than Phaneuf and Schenn (hah), it’ll be nearly impossible for him to bring back anything of value.
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I have no qualms with the Beauch deal per se but with Burke’s overall strategy leading into 09/10, as evidenced by all his moves, some of which were pretty terrible (not just in hindsight but at the time).
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. If he’s to be believed, though, the 09-10 season was never going to have the Leafs as a contender, and there was already a rebuild underway. I don’t think that he suddenly changed his mind from “aim for playoffs with stopgaps” to “trade away entire team to calgary.”
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yup, plan A failed, so he moved on to plan B, which is the same thing as plan A just a couple years slower
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
This I agree with. I just thought Plan A kind of sucked (even if I liked certain parts of it in isolation).
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
But we didn’t.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
See, that’s the thing: I just cannot believe that plan A was “well, this team should be good enough to win with just a couple additions.” and then 6 months later, “OH GOD, BLOW IT UP. PLAN B NOW!”
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i think plan A included the sedin’s and thats why it failed, komi and beauch shore up back-end and sedin’s up front. leafs immediate contenders was plan A i think
Sedins were extended before the UFA period. It wasn’t “shore up the back end, then get the Sedins.”
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So Burke went: Plan A, then when the biggest parts of Plan A got snatched up he decided to still plow through it for six months? Don’t buy it.
Komi and Beauch were because the Leafs didn’t have defensive prospects to throw into the fire and they needed cover to develop.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
dont know about plow through it but he didnt have alot of other options once plan a fell through. plan A = turn leafs minimal assests into future star (kessel), sign sedins and solidify d with FA’s. plan B takes time and good scouting and trades that can’t be forecast when burke first took over the job.
now its plan B = create value by scouting (drafting and other leagues)and trades. the lack of quality FA’s hurts the rebuild but it wouldn’t surprise me if he offersheeted an rfa this summer. despite the rarity and underhandedness for the process.
It seems as though it’s all one plan:
Acquire elite top-end talent when possible through either, free agency, drafting or trades. Bring in established youner UFAs to shelter whatever young players/prospects you bring in. Fill the rest of the roster with young players who don’t make much money and who are competitive and hungry.
Maybe this is post hoc rationalization, but it seems more logical than Burke changing his plan because he couldn’t sign the Sedins.
To me this seems like the plan, and I can’t think of too many moves that have deviated from it.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
i like the sound of that. really that “should” sum up what 20-25 teams are doing. my plan A break down was based on the “quick” turnaround he hoped for. and the obsessiveness to over analysis everything that is TML
Thing is that there doesn’t need to be a plan a/plan b, good teams always do what people have labelled “plan b”. I expect Burke to keep attempting to add pieces wherever he can.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
to be fair about
our D prospects… until the Phaneuf/Aulie trade we didn’t have much. Beauchemin and Komisarek signed on the dotted line around July 1st of 2009. At that point in time the only legit D prospect actually IN the Leafs system was Schenn. Gunnarsson was signed on June 3rd, but had yet to play in North America. Blacker had just been drafted 3 days prior.
Holzer didn’t sign until the summer of 2010.
Mikus didn’t sign unitl Sept. 19th 2009.
So we were sheltering guys we had no idea about in terms of development time at that point? I don’t know how they can fix a time line at that stage… it is quite possible they were thinking of keeping both semi-long term.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Right
So there were no prospects to shield which means there were no prospects to dump into the show which is why he needed to sign Beauch and Komi. Well, not Komi but he needed UFAs.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not buying. If it was just temporary cover, could have kept Kubina and left Komi to stink up someone else’s roster.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
He wanted his guys in because he thought those guys would do a better job of helping in the ‘win now’ part.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Looks like we’re agreeing after all…
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Weren’t they extended a couple days before July 1st?
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Like less than 24 hours I think. Burke was already in Sweden to, uh, “scout” Gustavsson.
20 miles to Legoland!
Yeah I thought that was the case. Haha “scout” Gustavsson.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Plan A also included competent goaltending.
Toskala really fell off the map.Whatever Burke’s original plan was, it definitely didn’t account for an .870 netminder. So while his goals likely remained the same, and his opinion of which players belonged, and which didn’t, Toskala’s implosion likely accelerated the process.
I disagree with you ‘67. Those deals were with an eye towards winning right away but also protecting kids. Burke doesn’t believe in putting a losing team on the ice and creating a losing environment. One thing the perpetual rebuild teams have in common is that they almost never made the jump from tanking to competing so players knew nothing but losing.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
This is why those teams
often add vets around the time they want to make the jump… i.e. Khabibulin, Hossa, Campbell, etc. in Chicago.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Except as Chicago’s shown, it’s probably a good idea to try and lock up a few of your key guys before you start blowing all your cap space…
Resident Capologist
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Ding Ding Ding
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Chicago also had superstar “kids”.
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Mar 1, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
“Deals to shelter kids” shouldn’t be for 5 years. He thought Komi was a centrepiece. He was dead wrong.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think that they are mutually exclusive.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
haha No
I am explaining why I think Burke did it. I still think it was wrong.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Why was the signing wrong? Was Komisarek not one of the better UFA defenseman available? No one would of predicted he would have such a shitty time adjusting here. His money was the going rate, I mean didn’t the Habs offer him $4M and he signed with us for $500k more?
The signing looks bad now, in hindsight.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
Personally
I am against spending big money on a defenseman who doesn’t have some offense…
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He actually signed with us for less if I remember correctly.
UFA deals just usually aren’t good value especially when you’re looking at a defensive defenceman when the evaluation is rooted less in stats than offensive defencemen.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
See but that’s my point, I dont think we need to have everyone on our back end point producers… it would be nice but the idea of having a hard hitting tough shot blocking defenseman was the goal here with Komi… I don’t think his defensive lapses were considered to be that much of a problem. I have faith that Komi is one of those guys that brings it in the playoffs more so than the regular season… reason being is his ability to get away with more in the post-season and focus better on his nightly assignments since they wont change.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
the idea of having a hard hitting tough shot blocking defenseman was the goal here with Komi
The idea was right but in practice it hasn’t worked and doesn’t look likely to work.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Ok so we agree on this but now what? That was the market price and if you’re right about him signing here for less he actually did us a favour. We just have to hope he gets back to the way he plays and I think we might see that soon… or maybe not. If he doesn’t at least we have the cap space for now and that’s not hurting us as well as the low minutes would hopefully hurt us too often too. Hey like the saying goes, when life gives you lemons, make some Lemoncello!
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
Yeah, there’s nothing we can do. Burke made a bad call and it turned out as bad as was expected.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
trading for 1st round draft picks is more recognizable the type of rebuild fans are used to over the last several years.
The lower free agency age of the cap era sinec the 05 lockout has changed things a rebuild. But generally speaking the acquisition of high draft picks signals “thinking of the future”
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
so does acquiring 22 year old very skilled hockey players
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
i think the average fan has know idea of what or who a prospect is unless its a draft year and they are top ten
fair enough
i’m just saying the optics of trading away 1sts looks and feels like “win now, mortgage future” to most people.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Most of those assumptions were based on the idea that Kessel was simply a product of Marc Savard’s passing and had no elements of his game other than goalscoring that would continue to develop.
The further gloomy reassessment after we finished 29th was based on the assumption that Seguin was the same level of talent as Hall, which is thankfully seeming unlikely.
"I’ve been studying this and I’m pretty sure this is how it breaks down: 'You are allowed one team: The Leafs. In some cases, you can also root for a second team: The Leafs'"
-Cornelius Hardenbergh
To hell with the rebuild the fans are used to. I mean, it’s certainly an option, but the expectation that “this is the only way to signal a rebuild” is exactly what A) leads people to think "oh now he’s rebuilding! B) leads to Columbuses, Islanders, and Atlantas.
A rebuild is about acquiring young, good players and prospects at the expense of veterans and prime-aged known quantities, and while Kessel’s deal didn’t necessarily signal a full on “nuke everything,” put in context with the Phaneuf/Toskala deals, it should be clear that Burke’s tenure has always been a rebuild. Even if it wasn’t the rebuild people expected.
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leads to Columbuses, Islanders, and Atlantas.
I really hate it when people bring up these teams, mainly because they’ve been so horribly mis-managed that they’re not even a fair example. Also, the Islanders aren’t done their rebuild, why do people keep thinking they’ve been rebuilding for decades?
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
You hate that Columbus, who has had a top ten pick in all but 1 year of their existence gets brought up when people argue draft picks aren’t the only way to build a team?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
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Mis-managed.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
But that’s the dirty little secret.
It’s not an equation that’s as simple as “High Draft Picks = Stanley Cup” that people like to make it out to be.
It’s a complex, ever-changing equation, that basically boils down to “Draft PIcks + Scouting + Prospect Development + Luck = Stanley Cup”, only the ratio changes year to year.
So, it is entirely fair to bring up Columbus, Florida and the Islanders, because they were too stupid to realize there’s more than one variable in the damn equation.
Resident Capologist
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I would also add to that equation, financial stability, stable management, competent coaching
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Minnesota Wild’s coach during the Riseborough years: Jacques Lemaire
Sellout streak: continuous
Management: stable but decreasing in quality
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why I said they’re a good comparable. The above mentioned are teams who aren’t at the same level we are at in terms of Management and Financial stability.
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
There was an article I saw a week ago that said – in terms of the games played with the current team – the leafs are similar in a lot of ways to a 3rd-year expansion team.
Minnesota in 2003 went to the Western finals but were knocked out by some fucking asshole hot goalie
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
I wish we had THAT goalie
Fairweather fans can go to hell
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Didn’t MInnesota get to the Western Finals because of some asshole hot goalie?
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And Jacques Lemaire’s diabolical trap, yes.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Fuck that year
Fuck Minnesota
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Fuck the canucks
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0PpErz6RQ
“Look at Matt Cooke! If you’re gonna fight, drop your gloves and fight like a man!”
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
All of which re-enforce my point that it takes a shitload more than just high draft picks to succeed.
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Oh, I’m on your side with this subject. I do a very bad job of explaining myself becaue I’m a very lazy typer and in the middle of class. But my original point, and I acknowledge I did a terrible job of, was that using the above mentioned teams is like comparing apples and oranges because of the different circumstances surrounding them. The 3, I singled out are financially poor teams, whereas we are the Toronto Freaking Maple Leafs.
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
On the one hand, if Toronto had a top 10 pick for much of the last 10 years like Columbus, Florida and some of those others have had, you have to think the deep pockets of MLSE would offer someone like Brian Burke the stability to do it right.
On the other hand, Luca Cereda. Toronto’s history of drafting is sub-par at best and horribly horrible at worst. But again, with the kind of team and scouting that Burke has put together, I have to think that Toronto’s management would do a better job of that kind of rebuild than the organized chaos there is in weak markets like Atlanta, Florida and NYI.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Mar 1, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
No arguments there however, he was picked 24th, not top 10.
Fairweather fans can go to hell
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Financial and managerial stability is key to building a strong franchise. The above mentioned teams all lack deep pockets. The Pens got fucking lucky, they could be right up there with them had they not drafted Crosby.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
It’s ironic that Pittsburgh was on the verge of bankruptcy, playing out of the oldest barn in the league, when they drafted Crosby. He single handedly pulled that team from the fire.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Mar 1, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Also that lottery was “random”. I smell conspiracy
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by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Not gonna like, I always found it awful convenient that Pittsburgh happened to “win” that lottery.
/tinfoil’d
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Mar 1, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
If by ironic you mean a conspiracy, then yes.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
What we need to do is get rid of the Teacher’s Pension Plan, they only care about the bottom line.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
As they should, I’d rather they just worry about profits and let Brian Burke worry about Winning.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I was joking.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Oh.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Mostly because the Islanders haven’t won a playoff series since 1993.
It’s easy to say those teams were horribly mismanaged in hindsight. What did the Penguins do that was so clearly brilliant, other than get ridiculously lucky with the Crosby ping pong ball? Without him, they’re just another Columbus.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Mar 1, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
5 straight top 5 picks. They were horrible.
Fairweather fans can go to hell
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1st over all on MAF, i dont care what anyone says, that is a horrible pick
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
That was a pretty dumb pick
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I rather not.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
No way they’d still have all 4 today though… That’d be roughly $30 million locked up in Crosby/Malkin/E.Staal/J.Staal.
Truculligerestosterugnacity.
If they havr Eric and still were crappy enough to draft top 5 in 06 I think they take Kessel as the best winger available.
by Nigel Cadbury on Mar 1, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
From 2000 – 2007 they made the playoffs in 4 out of 5 years (discounting the lockout).
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
In 5 seasons they won 6 playoff games. The Leafs won 19 over that same span. And this is the best the Islanders have been since they won the Cup.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Mar 1, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not arguing that they were an AMAZING SUPER FANTASTIC team, I’m simply saying they weren’t rebuilding.
Shitty team, very much so.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Panthers, Blues, Wild. Teams that have drafted into some good players and still not won, even though I wouldn’t call them astonishingly mismanaged.
This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.
Now those are much better comparables.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I’m amazed that the Blues have never won a cup, considering the talent that has passed through that team over the years. Gretzky, Hull, MacInnis, Pronger, Oates…
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Mar 1, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I wish I had an answer but most of those teams were built up before I was old enough to know/care.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Me too. By the time I noticed, they were trying to win with an overweight Tkachuk.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Mar 1, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’d disagree about the Wild being mismanaged considering Riseborough let Gaborik walk
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Surprised they stood pat at the deadline.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t he disgruntled with the team?
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. Blame Riseborough
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Should’ve flipped him.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
He was leaving at the end of the year anyhow, so yeah.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
well there is mismanaged, and then there is islanders mismanaged
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
How to make Islanders fan collectively rage?
Mention Mike Milbury.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, everyone has had screwups. Talking about major issues not being addressed (goaltending with the Thrashers over a 4-year period, for example).
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My point is: 2 first rounders for 1 hardly changes things as drastically as the MSM and the casual fan thinks. And signing a couple of d-men in free agency didn’t make it not a rebuild either. The house was cleaned, youth was served. It’s always been a rebuild.
Burke repeatedly said he expected to make the playoffs last year and in this case I actually believe him.
So we’ll disagree as to his intentions last year (we’ll never know for sure) but agree he seems to be doing OK this year.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think him saying that his intentions were to make the playoffs preclude rebuilding. There’s more to rebuilding than icing 23 21 year olds.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
As noted above, to me the term of Komi’s contract is the telling misstep.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see why you’re so focused on that. Burke’s plan involves assembling a core of youthful, talented players in roughly the same age demographic, then hoping they mature properly together so that – when they collectively reach their prime – they are a competitive force.
That involves acquiring assets from Day One, but it ALSO depends on time passing as young players mature, gain experience and learn to play with one another within the system etc.
The key is that time – years – will have to pass before the team is truly ready to compete. A four year deal for Komi at the beginning of last season was by no means an indication that Burke had certainly settled on him as part of the core. Somebody has to play the minutes until the talent that you DO acquire is ready to go. I think there’s a reason that the first assets Burke signed were “truculent” assets: Orr, Komisarek, Beauchemin. These were guys who were signed to provide physical protection for the kids who would be rotating through and auditioning for permanent jobs.
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The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
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Sure, and I just have always thought that was a terribly misbegotten strategy. Skill trumps truculence every time. That’s why I liked the Beauchemin and Kessel deals and hated the Komi and Orr ones. Truculence can be had on one year deals for dirt cheap.
And I think Komi and Orr were signed for way too long.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
I used to have no problem with Orr, now I see that he is 100% unnecessary.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
And I think Komi and Orr were signed for way too long.
Definitely.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Red Wings are way overused as an example of all that is good and holy in hockey, but the one thing I think they have gotten right is that they focus on good hockey players. Sure, they’ve had plenty of guys with sandpaper but I can’t think of one true “goon”.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
But if Komi and Orr were “signed for way too long” then who would we have to fill in his role let alone Lebda’s more kids? That’s just crazy wishful thinking on your part… and too long for Orr too? What, you don’t think having someone like that around to mix it up or stand up to the trash talking haters on the ice, trust me on this there was some choice shit that used to be thrown and still is to these young fragile egos on this Leafs team and you don’t think having Orr around for a couple more years to make sure that shit is done with while we rebuild isn’t a good thing?
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
I think we could find a defenceman to play 8 minutes a game at less than $4.5M a year and for fewer than five years.
I think that the problem with Orr’s deal is that it made him almost undroppable. Rosehill’s been a better option and Wilson obviously feels more comfortable with him in the lineup. As for enforcers, I don’t mind them when they can play but I think another part of Orr’s impact is that guys like Stajan that were good for one highlight reel hit against a game are gone.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
With Komi, I don’t think nor anyone on this board believed at the time he would digress to a 3rd pairing dman, so I cant help that it hasn’t worked out yet for him in Toronto. As for Orr and Rosie, well I think Orr already has a rep of being one of the toughest and best fighters… remember Orr makes no distinctions as to if you’re a fighter or not, if you deserve it he’ll be happy top give it to you and take the wrath of your tough guy and beat him too. I don’t think you can say that about Rosehill yet. Also Orr is not a defensive liability as much as other “goons” and btw I don’t think he’s a goon at all. He just doesn’t bring much in the sense of scoring but at least with him teams will think twice before pulling shit on us.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
Komi
Many here didn’t want to give him that kind of money or that term. It seemed unnecessary and simply, you don’t pay that much for what he brought then. There were also many around who thought he was overrated as an “all star” because montreal fans went crazy voting him in.
As well you’ll notice that he is the only FA signing that got such a huge term and large cap hit. The other UFA’s Burke has signed of a decent cap hit (Army and Beauch) were only for 3 years not 5.
Finally it is a GM’s job to judge talent and he failed miserably. Sure we couldn’t have predicted that he would fall this far, but he definitely was not worht the money even then. If the market rate was too high, stay out of the market.
I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!
The bright side is that we haven’t need his cap space and when we likely will need it, it will be easy to plant him in the AHL.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
I really doubt Burke will. He likes the guy too much and Burke is “the player’s GM”. He hasn’t removed his A for a reason methinks…
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This year
Then again, he traded his guy Beauchemin.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Trading is fine the player is still in the league. He is not slapping him in the face by sending him to the minors
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I don’t think he will but I’m not ruling it out completely. It’s a slim chance but he did it to Finger.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Plus I always see him as help to low budget teams that need the cap hit to make the floor. His actual salary still sucks (as per capgeek) $4M last year, $6M this year, $5.5M next but $3.5M the remaining two.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
Yeah, that could definitely be a factor in the future.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
As said above I think at the time we really had no choice and like it or not, Komi was the best choice. I know he has many short comings and I was one that didn’t want nor think we needed him but that doesn’t make me and others that thought the same right and Burke wrong.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
There was a choice: not sign him.
And it does make us right. Komisarek’s fallen further than we imagined but he wouldn’t be worth his cash even if he was playing near his peak.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
I think the team this year looks a lot like the team he was expecting last year.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Mar 1, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Trading 2 firsts for 1 didn’t make it not a rebuild.
That wasn’t my point…. I think if we were in a playoff spot, he wouldn’t have shipped off Beauchemin, Kaberle and Versteeg.
Nothing to do with the Kessel deal.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 1, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
It’s always been rebuilding.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. We all scoffed at the prospect of not using Kaberle’s summer trade window, but the deal Burke got by holding on to his player was miles better than any reported offer we got in August.
According to Burke in an interview yesterday, our youth and prospects drew interest at the deadline, especially the goaltending. I’m very happy with our prospect depth at G and D, and that Burke seems content to let them play out; there will be no Reimer for Raycroft.
If moving picks at draft can address some of the issues with our forward depth, I’ll be extremely happy with the “accelerated” rebuild.
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Fishing trip – June 29 – July 6
Book it now, Dave Nonis
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Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік
Oh please, please, please.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
didn;t they go fishing once and everyone freaked out?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
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Wasn’t the fishing trip during Kabs’ trade window? Turns out that was a good move.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Mar 1, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Yup.
The freakout was INTENSE.
Hopefully this offseason is a bit more calm, I can’t see a ton of pieces I’d like to see added. Maybe a PMD if one is available, but there isn’t a lot of top 6 talent in play.
20 miles to Legoland!
It was pretty funny actually, like they were somehow incommunicado up there or something.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
honestly
I can’t think of a single UFA forward I want to add.
I’d be fine with some older vets for the bottom 6? But nobody that’ll cost over $2 mill… and we can fill those roles internally.
UFA D and G maybe… Bryzgalov, Hamrlik… those sorts of signings wouldn’t bother me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Armstrong and Brown have 2 of the 6 bottom six spots.
Orr has another, but for argument’s sake let’s call him the 13th forward.
I think Brent should fill one of the centre spots, because he has definable skills (PK & faceoffs) that will be necessary next year.
Sjostrom’s probably gone, and I think Rosehill should be back with the Marlies.
That leaves 3 spots open. I think you need to add a centre somewhere (ideally a #1 so that Bozak can play #3 and give the team more scoring depth, or at worst upgrade over Boyce as your #3),
You need to figure out whether Kadri’s making this team out of camp; and if so, what position he’s playing.
You need to figure out what to do with Hanson and Caputi.
And you need to figure out if there’s players available who can be upgrades over Crabb & Boyce at a marginally increased cost.
Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік
Waive Orr.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think part of Burkes mission, whether his own or MLSE’s is to prop up the AHL team and have that team be a big money maker. Having that as part of his agenda, I doubt he is in any rush to have future players rushed up to the big buys club. Take a look at some of the Marlies game day threads, so many of us comment how we ought to go to Marlie games now that there is some good young players on it. Its all part of the plan and I for one like it.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
According to Craig Button, MLSE originally budgeted for the Marlies to make $4M a year. They currently lose about that much a year. So I don’t think his job is to prop it up. His job is to do what you said in the second part: use them as a development ground.
He’s done a great job fo that and Dallas Eakins has been a big part of that.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
If MLSE wants to make money with the Marlies they would stop being dickwallets with ticket pricing….
Resident Capologist
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік
Also
The concessions are brutally priced, the tickets are too expensive for tier two entertainment, the atmosphere is not managed effectively, and on and on.
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I’ve been to 4 Marlies games in the past week and a half and, as far as I can see, if MLSE are trying to make the Marlies profitable, they’ve got some strange ideas about how to do it. Honestly, I think they care more that the arena gets used and that the AHL team is nearby for call ups. They’re comfortable with losing $3m-4m a year in order to get that sort of convenience.
No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise.
Do you want me to have a stroke? Is that what you’re after? Because if so, good job!
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by Benjamin Massey on Mar 1, 2011 12:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Mission Accomplished
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I get the feeling that MacArthur was never seriously on the market. It feels like Burke was stirring the pot to create a perception of discord on the off-chance that a contender was prepared to grossly overpay for him.
No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise.
Perfect. That’s exactly what should’ve happened. If he was a UFA, the conversation would be different, but for an RFA? Overpayment or nothing.
This is where a witty signature might go.
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and the other thing is
considering his offer-sheet value is probably pretty steep, I don’t see why you’d settle for anything less.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Versteeg's
trade value was a low starting point.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
But we are totally loving him in Philly ! : D
His value went down from last year because he wasnt a good fit for Toronto as he was with Chicago in the past or with Philadelphia now.
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Has he stick handled to the line and lost it yet?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
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Ah, yes, always good to not get magic beans. After all, who wants a chance to draft guys like Crosby, Lidstrom, Sakic, Stamkos…
Better to wait until they are past their prime, then sign ’em to $20 million contracts.
Well there is magic beans and then there are top three picks. Even then, still magic beans. Or are you saying Seguin fits into that group of players?
Had the Leafs gotten Phil Kessel from the draft would that be better for you? Instead of paying draft picks to get Phil Kessel? What if Burke had liked Phil Kessel and traded additional picks to move up to get Phil Kessel? That would have been Ok?
Draft picks are assets just like everything else. If you turn assets into quality NHLers, isn’t that the point?
The Stanley Cup playoffs are just a dog-and-pony show for the crowds. Each year the owners and GMs all get together at a posh hotel and hand out the real award, Who’s Got the Most Unconverted Top Five Picks.
"I’ve been studying this and I’m pretty sure this is how it breaks down: 'You are allowed one team: The Leafs. In some cases, you can also root for a second team: The Leafs'"
-Cornelius Hardenbergh
Crosby was a lottery ball. Lidstrom went 53rd overall (3rd round). It really undercuts your argument if you don’t know these things.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Mar 1, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Komisarek, but defensive D don’t usually peak at 27
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
that implies Lebda ever had a prime
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 1, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness, he hasn’t been cringe worthy as of late.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Word on the street is he scored a real live goal.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
I’m still in dis-belief.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
If I didn’t witness it i would have assumed you were all playing a prank on me.
20 miles to Legoland!
It was a nifty goal too.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
I was there.
President of the Emotional Hedging club.
24/02/2011: I was there when Brett Lebda scored.
Did you see a glitch in the Matrix?
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
A black cat went past us and then I saw another that looked just like it.
How much like it? Was it the same cat?
20 miles to Legoland!
hahaha
What picks are the Oilers getting? A late first rounder in a weak draft. Yeah, they really gave up on Crosby.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
I deleted the comment with homophobic slurs so don’t reply to that comment or the ones threaded below it.
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While Im glad I missed the homophobic slurs, the rest of this thread has kept me entertained for the last 30 minutes of my shift! Thanks PPP! You save the day again!
I think you'll find I'm universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult.
Twitter is the thing with all the tweets...
I particularly liked the part where the PPPPiranhas had the troll going from “Phil Kessel SUXXORRRS” to “Hey guys, uh, I like Wendel Clark more than Phil Kessel!”
"I’ve been studying this and I’m pretty sure this is how it breaks down: 'You are allowed one team: The Leafs. In some cases, you can also root for a second team: The Leafs'"
-Cornelius Hardenbergh
OH MAN
I love that for when we get dummies in here!
PPPPiranhas!
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that’s one less dummy to deal with.
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It was weird.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
It’s like the ‘delete’ button is soap for getting stupid out of websites.
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by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
That was a special kind of stupid.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Is he B&’d?
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I love the influx of angry replies to nothing right after someone gets dumped from this site.
Hockey Blog Adventure: New Post: The KABERLE Era has begun! (I'm also on Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 1, 2011 4:54 PM EST reply actions
What are you talking about, CH?
This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.
Exactly
Move along, nothing to see here.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, what a bloodbath. Glad I saw it before it got disappeared.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
Did it make you feel like cryin?
"I’ve been studying this and I’m pretty sure this is how it breaks down: 'You are allowed one team: The Leafs. In some cases, you can also root for a second team: The Leafs'"
-Cornelius Hardenbergh
MacArthur has shown that given the right linemates and the right role, he can be a good player, he is young enough that it would seem stupid not to sign him. Like Chemmy has said, Burke has all the leverage so I hope he uses it.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 1, 2011 4:59 PM EST reply actions
It would be stupid of MacArthur not to sign here. I think he needs us more than we need him. This is the first team he’s really excelled on.
Burke is never going to rip a player off, I think he’s a fair guy, but the days of overpaying to get players here are over. If MacArthur wants the real big paycheque, lead the team in scoring next year again and throw a few playoff game-winning goals in there for good measure.
I like Clarke but Burke has to keep playing hardball with the RFA’s like he did with Kulie last summer.
BULLSHIT!!!
I had TWO green’d comments!!!1
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
by leafer1984 on Mar 1, 2011 5:00 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Demand a recount!
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone please rec Leafer’s comment to make up for his lost rec’s.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Hahahahahaha
I dont need your pity recs!
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Would it make you feel better if we flagged PPP’s comments?
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Fine! Unrec’d! In fact, flagged for not being appreciative enough of my beautiful rec’s.
This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.
Everyone please flag Leafer to teach him not to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Whatcha say about my mom?!
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Admin’s have access to that, we the peasants do not.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
There should be a user stats update every month! You guys could crunch the numbers and give us advanced stats
PuckingHilarious.com - funny hockey apparel for hard core puck heads.
Quality of opposition per troll.
etc..
Popped a Colboner - Certified Joe Colborne Fanboy
Follow me on Twittaarrr
by happiergilmore on Mar 1, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
HA!
The ultra rare green flagged comment.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
I missed an epic troll stomping AND a banning?! Goddammit, where’s the PPP instant replay? Can I at least see the troll guts on the Banhammer?
Cyril: I'm not sure that's technically irony.
Archer: What? This is like O. Henry and Alanis Morissette had a baby and named it this exact situation!
Troll Baby?
"I’ve been studying this and I’m pretty sure this is how it breaks down: 'You are allowed one team: The Leafs. In some cases, you can also root for a second team: The Leafs'"
-Cornelius Hardenbergh
Eh he wasn’t “trolling” per say.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Sure he was
It’s not always about “LAFFS SUX”
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
People's concepts of rebuilds puzzle me
For every Pittsburgh there’s a New York Islanders or Atlanta Thrashers. For every Chicago there’s a St. Louis, a Columbus Blue Jackets or a Florida Panthers who are once more rebuilding.
I don’t disagree with your central argument, but I do find your examples, which I see used a lot, as odd — almost as off the mark as people thinking Pittsburgh had a concerted plan to get those top picks that gave them Crosby & Co.
All of those “there’s a” examples have had crippling ownership issues, which to me supersede any concerted rebuild strategy. They are certainly examples of foolish ownership and mismanagement (or, generally, constantly shifting management strategies), but they aren’t really examples of focused rebuilds that didn’t work. I’ll just take two examples I know best:
St. Louis: What good players have they dumped? Or rather, what “Penner Moment” have they inflicted upon themselves? If you say Pronger (and even Demitra, Stillman, and on), all of those departures were thanks to a jackass NBA-wannabe owner who decided to strip the team down before selling it in a distressed sale. The new owners had to sift through the ashes, slowly, in a still low-revenue setting, and steadily reassemble the teams talent pool at the NHL and prospect level. In that process they’ve made mistakes, but there hasn’t really been a “they’re rebuilding again” moment there. The only thing that would evoke that impression is that they stumbled into the playoffs by surprise two years ago.
Long Island: Again, massive ownership (and venue, and municipal) issues, as well as the much-cited difficulty in attracting free agent reinforcements. (Their best quality player signed from elsewhere may have been Bill Guerin, who was signed as their best player and required overpayment of $4.5M just to come over in his late 30s.) Meanwhile, between 2002 and 2007 the team made the playoffs four times in five seasons, and in 2007-08 they were in the bubble hunt until Rick DiPietro wrecked his hip at the All-Star Game and permanently altered the fate, and punchlines, of the franchise.
That’s an example of a lot of issues, but hardly an example of a perpetual rebuild. Their rebuild is essentially as old as Luke Schenn’s NHL career, and they’ve not done a single “let’s trade Penner” in the interim, but they have done a few “cash Comrie and Campoli and Sutton in for whatever we can get” in the process.
I’ve always thought people are wrong if they think the Pittsburgh or Chicago experiences are repeatable (and honestly, both of those teams’ luck/draft fortune trace well back to the early 2000s. But I also think people’s counterexamples are usually way too devoid of context to serve as true counterexamples: There aren’t many actual examples of franchises that have had the ownership support and consistent strategy to actually see a rebuild through. Los Angeles under Lombardi might be one — one where there are general principles they are patiently sticking to, and even there it’s still on-going — but everywhere else there tends to be just examples of ownership turmoil which creates management duress, which creates the impression of failed rebuilds.
In a 30-team league where a select few have revenue and reputation competitive advantages that draw reinforcements (sometimes at a discount), the franchises that have been crapped on by their own parents probably have to start at the bottom and patiently sort through the ashes they’ve been left. To me that’s a rebuild, and we’ve seen too few real examples to even say, “See, that didn’t work.”
Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.
by Dominik on Mar 1, 2011 5:46 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
What he said.
This was what I was trying to get at with my posts above, but like I said, I’m quite lazy.
Kulemin so hot right now, Kulemin.
I'm giving Twitter another go
by PassivelyTruculent on Mar 1, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
I do find your examples, which I see used a lot, as odd — almost as off the mark as people thinking Pittsburgh had a concerted plan to get those top picks that gave them Crosby & Co.
Great comment. I get what you’re saying. Tyler Dellow gets crapped on by Caps fans a lot for pointing out that ending up with the pick that became Alex Ovechkin actually came in a year when the Caps were trying to compete. Actually, Eberle and MPS are BOTH fruits of Lowe and Tambellini’s complete inability to build a playoff team despite trying and spending up to the cap.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Right, the Caps won the draft lottery that year. So they were trying to compete but ended up crappy? Not sure how that helps any argument that you can rebuild while being competitive? They may have wanted to be competitive but they finished in a position that rebuilding teams strive for to draft Ovie.
Interesting…
Oh wait I get it, what he’s saying is that Washington didn’t take the “rebuild route” at all, they actually just fell on their face and lucked out. I thought that was an argument FOR being competitive and still rebuilding when I first read it…
No
You got it the second time. They were trying to ice a good team and fell flat on their face. Unfortunately for the rest of the league they then bounced and landed ass backwards in Alex Ovechkin. Then they really tore the team apart.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 1, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think the argument being made
Is not that these teams have screwed themselves over. Just that getting a lot of high draft picks by sucking is not a guarantee to success.
I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!
Thanks
I needed a nice read. Lots of interesting stuff. Rebuilding my house doesn’t mean a teardown. Komi is only 27 so lets not throw him away yet.
Is not that these teams have screwed themselves over. Just that getting a lot of high draft picks by sucking is not a guarantee to success.
Yeah, and I totally agree with that central point. Didn’t mean to make a quibble over details into something bigger (but I’m not often brief!).
“Rebuild” is a loaded term I guess — and worse, it can be a crutch for incompetence. Most of the examples I mentioned, I there were definite culprits who have kept those teams down. I just think if an owner and his GM pick up one of those situations and go through what I would call a true “rebuild,” they’d have pretty good results, in that they’d build at least a playoff team with decent depth to give them hope they’ll catch lightning in a bottle one year
Oh, and my thoughts aren’t meant to be a defense of what the Isles or Blues are doing right now. To me, both teams are going through the hard part of a rebuild in terms of patience and fan relations — but it’s also the easy part in terms of decision-making, because the pressure to win is low. To me the real tough decisions come when expectations are high, you have a roster of pretty good players, and you have to figure out which of those players or future assets to cut/pawn off in the hope of making marginal upgrades that bump you up to the next tier.
Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.
There aren’t many actual examples of franchises that have had the ownership support and consistent strategy to actually see a rebuild through
Good point. Also important is how you develop you players. You can draft high but if you don’t have a good minor league development system (or you play them early when they aren’t ready (see: Josh Bailey) then you probably aren’t going to be successful.
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Mar 1, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
Too true.
I envy the teams who have let their prospects marinate (and who can pawn off a non-essential one for Dustin freaking Penner). I hope the Isles are starting to get to that point…they should have several of their own moving to the AHL soon, and their one graduate this year, Hamonic, wouldn’t be in the NHL if the entire blueline hadn’t been hit by a bus.
Lighthouse Hockey: Send us your cold, your poor, your healthy goalies.
I think they’re doing it right now, I was happy to see them send Niederreiter down at the start of the season. He’s gonna be a good one.
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Mar 2, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
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