Best and Worst Goaltending Since the Lockout

by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 9:38 AM EST

Editor's Note: BCapp is back looking at his save percentage data from last week. This time he ranks it by standard deviations. As before, set your screen to the 'wide' view on the right or the tables will be cut off.

Hello again blogosphere. Some of you may have read my post last week about save percentages above and below league average for each year since the lockout. When I was discussing the data in an FTB a couple of days after, our benevolent overlord Chemmy, pointed out that stating the actual difference from average is kind of useless. What would better let us compare is standard deviation from average.

To not just be a rehash of my last post, this time I looked closer at the best and the worst since the lockout. Come over after the jump for the data

First off I sorted the data by standard deviation which can be found on a spreadsheet here.

Top 15
Rank	Player	Year	GP	Shots Against	Goals Against	Saves	Save %	Difference	*Difference 1000**	Standard Deviations
1	Tim Thomas	2010/2011	44	1401	85	1316	0.9393	0.0253	25.3042	2.1459
2	Tim Thomas	2008/2009	54	1694	114	1580	0.9327	0.0218	21.8238	2.1109
3	Cristobal Huet	2005/2006	36	1085	77	1008	0.9290	0.0245	24.5114	2.0585
4	Niklas Backstrom	2006/2007	41	1028	73	955	0.9290	0.0200	20.0126	1.9006
5	Tuukka Rask	2009/2010	45	1221	84	1137	0.9312	0.0188	18.8088	1.7656
6	Dominik Hasek	2005/2006	43	1202	90	1112	0.9251	0.0206	20.6039	1.7303
7	Chris Mason	2006/2007	40	1244	93	1151	0.9252	0.0163	16.2654	1.5448
8	Miikka Kiprusoff	2005/2006	74	1951	151	1800	0.9226	0.0181	18.0829	1.5186
9	Ryan Miller	2009/2010	69	2098	150	1948	0.9285	0.0161	16.1082	1.5121
10	Henrik Lundqvist	2005/2006	53	1485	116	1369	0.9219	0.0174	17.3647	1.4583
11	Tomas Vokoun	2008/2009	59	1855	138	1717	0.9256	0.0147	14.7266	1.4244
12	Dan Ellis	2007/2008	44	1147	87	1060	0.9241	0.0134	13.3578	1.4079
13	Ty Conklin	2007/2008	33	1013	78	935	0.9230	0.0122	12.2088	1.2868
14	James Reimer	2010/2011	19	563	40	523	0.9290	0.0149	14.9272	1.2659
15	Tomas Vokoun	2005/2006	61	1984	160	1824	0.9194	0.0148	14.8340	1.2458



Bottom 15
Rank	Player	Year	GP	Shots Against	Goals Against	Saves	Save %	Difference	*Difference 1000**	Standard Deviations
221	Nikolai Khabibulin	2010/2011	39	1152	123	1029	0.8932	-0.0208	-20.7957	-1.7636
222	Brian Elliott	2010/2011	45	1220	131	1089	0.8926	-0.0214	-21.4019	-1.8150
223	Jose Theodore	2005/2006	43	1158	137	1021	0.8817	-0.0228	-22.8283	-1.9171
224	Olie Kolzig	2007/2008	54	1423	153	1270	0.8925	-0.0183	-18.3115	-1.9300
225	Vesa Toskala	2008/2009	53	1518	166	1352	0.8906	-0.0202	-20.2343	-1.9571
226	Dan Ellis	2010/2011	33	796	87	709	0.8907	-0.0233	-23.3213	-1.9777
227	Johan Hedberg	2007/2008	36	1026	111	915	0.8918	-0.0190	-18.9793	-2.0004
228	Jonas Gustavsson	2010/2011	23	620	68	552	0.8903	-0.0237	-23.7023	-2.0100
229	Jussi Markkanen	2005/2006	37	873	105	768	0.8797	-0.0248	-24.7958	-2.0824
230	Johan Holmqvist	2007/2008	47	1164	129	1035	0.8892	-0.0216	-21.6169	-2.2784
231	Chris Osgood	2008/2009	46	1208	137	1071	0.8866	-0.0243	-24.2905	-2.3494
232	Pascal Leclaire	2009/2010	34	822	93	729	0.8869	-0.0255	-25.5338	-2.3970
233	Johan Hedberg	2008/2009	33	875	100	775	0.8857	-0.0252	-25.1656	-2.4341
234	Marc Denis	2006/2007	44	1068	125	943	0.8830	-0.0260	-26.0169	-2.4709
235	Vesa Toskala	2009/2010	32	773	93	680	0.8797	-0.0327	-32.7056	-3.0702

A couple things I notice:

Boston gets great goaltending. Three years in a row their number one goaltender's save percentage makes it into the top 5 since the lockout!
I don't care how few games Rask played last year, he deserved the Calder nomination over Jimmy Howard. He was the top goalie last year and 5th best since the lockout and he played in more than half of their games. (Howard was 5th in last year and 25th overall).
Related to the last post: anyone who believes Reimer will be up for the Calder will likely be sorely surprised. Rask played 45 games and if Reimer plays every single one left he'll have played 38 games. To be fair if we make the playoffs on his back that single accomplishment is more than any single thing that Rask did last year.
This always comes up. Toskala's goaltending last year was the worst since the lockout. At over 3 standard deviations below league average that would set him in the bottom 0.3% or so. Awesome. Look how much higher Denis' second worse was. Or the difference between Denis and Hedberg and Toskala and Denis. A league of his F****** own.
Gustavsson is having a terrible year. Considering he started strong over the first month in a half and only played until mid January, he played absolutely atrocious in those two months in between.
Tomas Vokoun is awesome. The fact that he hasn't been able to drag the Panthers into the playoffs says a lot about those teams.
The best full year of goaltending the Leafs have gotten since the lockout? Vesa Toskala in 2007/2008. 174th place. 66 GP. 0.904 save percentage. 0.71 standard deviations BELOW average. (Note Giggy's half and half year, last year ranks 156. Woot. (/sarcasm))
It wasn't that long ago that Giggy was an elite goal tender. His 2007/2008 numbers rank 17th since the lockout.
Do you know what comforts me about Toskala's numbers last year? Leclaire's were only 3 spots better and Ottawa was stuck with him for another year.
While a fanpost I did a while ago shows how important drafting is in getting elite centers it is not nearly as important in getting elite goal tending. Thomas-9th round. Huet-7th round. Backstrom-UFA. Rask-1st round (but late). Hasek-10th round. C. Mason-5th round. Kiprusoff-5th round. Miller-5th round. Lundqvist-7th round. Vokoun-9th round. Ellis-2nd round (but 60th overall). Conklin-undrafted UFA. Reimer-4th round.
Dan Ellis makes both the best and the worst list. Consistent isn't he?

Cheers

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Comments

more fun numbers!

(If you missed my comment earlier, I have a contact email for you for a summer volunteer thing. how can I get it to you?)

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Mar 8, 2011 8:26 PM EST reply actions

Great stuff.

Just curious as to why you seem to have arbitrarily cut off qualification for this list at about 33 GP. In my opinion, Reimer would look even more impressive if you had included all qualifying goalies, even if a couple of Craig Anderson seasons needed to be tossed up into the Top 10.

I’d wager that Reimer would still* make the Top 20, even after adding every qualifying season, which is that much more amazing, given that the overall list would grow from only 235 goalies to well over 300 (and you could still leave Cory Schneider out of the Top 10).

Plus Gustavsson would probably move out of the cellar.

-* would still have made it, according to these week-old numbers

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Mar 9, 2011 12:59 AM EST reply actions

I chose 40% because I only wanted to include players with a significant number of games played. Pretty arbitrary. And yeah these numbers are from last ~Wednesday when I collected the data

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions

Arbitrary, maybe, but then again the official 30% may as well have been pulled out of Ziegler’s ass.

My point was simply that by expanding the list to include all qualified goalies, and not just every significant workload plus Reimer’s and Gustavsson’s, that each Leafs performance wouldn’t even need an asterisk and they’d both end up looking more impressive, at the same time.

Either way, good stuff.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Mar 9, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions

I think

it makes more sense to set the cutoff on the basis of shots faced rather than games.

Also… I think rather than doing a seasonal analysis, it makes sense to just do it over a longer period of time to track overall ability rather than individual season fluctuations.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions

To this point

Gustavsson’s bad year looks atrocious, but when you observe that he faced 620 shots against while most of the others on the list faced over 750, and then think about the fact that that is 130 extra shots, or 4 games and a bit, it changes things.

If Gustavsson were to post a .920 save percentage over a 4 game stretch that would improve his SV% from .890 to .895 and takes him right off that bottom list.

This is why I think the number of shots faced is very relevant to this type of ranking.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:10 PM EST up reply actions

oh and just to illustrate that further with numbers

That change would shift the STD DEV from -2.01 to -1.57, which is a pretty large shift from a percentile perspective. That puts him in the 6th percentile rather than the 2nd percentile… which may not seem like a lot, but it’s pretty significant when we’re talking all goalies to ever play 33 games in the NHL.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions

You're right

Not denying it. These data aren’t perfect. But I still think they illustrate an interesting picture.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions

it's an unfairly skewed picture

that distorts the effects of a small sample vs. a large one.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions

also

have we verified that goaltender’s sv% is normally distributed for goalies who play over 33 games? because if it isn’t, there’s not much validity to this analysis… not intending this as an attack, but the standard deviation thing brings that into question.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions

I don't remember

How to test for normality unfortunately.

In regards to the large vs small sample size it had to be set somewhere. You’re complaining I set it too low and Spezza Team Player complained I set it too high…

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions

it's easy enough

to just plot the histogram of the goaltender results and verify by inspection… I’m doing it now… just give me a sec.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions

ok

for the record… the fact that we’re getting 3 standard deviation events (i.e. Toskala) then it implies that we’re underestimating the maximum deviations of the data predicted by the normal curve.

Honestly, looking at the histogram of the 218 players included, it’s not particularly bell shaped… it’s a very flat bell with significant variations up and down.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions

There are more goalies

registering a .925 SV% in the group as there are registering a .914 SV%… that’s problematic.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions

woops

*than there are.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions

particularly if the mean is

.909… so yeah… I’m not sold on the normalcy of the distribution… which means we’re not being 100% fair to those at the extremes.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions

So what would distribution woudl I use/what measure of variation?

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions

Is there a better distribution to use?

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions

honestly

the sample is too small to get a clear picture, particularly when we’re restricting it to under 300 samples.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions

the mean

is .909, but you’ve got 10 players registering seasons of .920 SV%, and 3 registering seasons of .908… does that make sense?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions

I'm willing to accept

that season’s like Toskala’s and Thomas’ are extremely rare… but not that the distribution is normal on the basis of the data.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions

not trying to rip all the work apart

and I appreciate the effort, I just think the data doesn’t support the view that the variation is as restricted as we’re assuming.

The idea that “most” NHL goalies fall near the middle of the data set is pretty far from reality… particularly with the degree of variation we’re observing, and the throttling of talent at lower levels. There really aren’t that many NHL goalies, and you don’t have large enough samples to get a clear enough picture season to season of the true range of talent or skill’s impact on the numbers.

The variation looks way more like random noise to me at this scale, and unfortunately that means realistically that yes good goalies that do this repeatably for years are probably significantly better than their peers, it also means that guys that have one good year followed by one bad year, likely aren’t as good or as bad as they seem.

I think career numbers make this easier, and likely have a more normal distribution, and similarly, higher shot totals would likely be closer to normal, but again the samples are so small that it doesn’t work particularly well to analyze in this fashion.

Bad goalies don’t usually play enough games to build up enough shots to significantly effect the data set.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions

long story short

I think Toskala’s atrocious year was something nobody could have predicted, and it’s largely more a result of random factors that contributed to it’s atrociousness… and that means MORE than just a lack of skill on his part.

If you look at his career numbers, they aren’t THAT bad, and while it’s worth noting how shitty his level of play was for that season, no reasonable analyst would ever predict a goalie would be THAT bad… which means blaming anyone for that performance with the limited options the Leafs had in net is sort of unfair at best.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions

In the same year, Steve Burtch has defended Brett Lebda and Vesa Toskala.

I am forced to conclude that you, sir, are an evil human being.

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by Bower Power on Mar 9, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions

Don’t forget Mike Komisarek!

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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 9, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions

yeah I defend him too

only because people expect him to handle the puck reasonably well… when all he’s good at is blocking shots and hitting guys in front of the net and taking stupid penalties.

Expecting him to put up points and not make giveaways or stupid plays is unreasonable. He needs a Kaberle/Markov type puck possession partner to limit/cover his mistakes.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions

meh

I’m just trying to help people get a handle on the stats… it’s also easier to defend Lebda when he’s one of over 800 skaters who have been registering a PDO stat over the past few years… the data set is over 3000 in size.

With goalies playing over 33 games since the lockout we’re talking less than 250 guys, and we’re talking about a lack of normalcy to the distribution.

I’m just saying we don’t know as much as we think we know, and the assertions we’re making about the goalies might be unfair? I’m trying to wrap my own head around it too… I know it’s not “nice” to disabuse us of what we’re witnessing, but I think luck plays a way bigger role in it than the ability of individual players.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions

Oh I greatly appreciate it

I haven’t had much formal education in stats (about 2 courses worth) and honestly didn’t think to check for normalcy before I ran the data. Probably should have…

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions

yeah

I’m not trying to argue Toskala wasn’t horrible a couple years ago… because he was… bad enough he shouldn’t have played 33+ games in the NHL. That’s indicated by how far gone his numbers were.

But the standard deviation discussions imply normalcy that isn’t there. Think of it this way… the odds of seeing a result that’s over 3 standard deviations from your mean is amazingly amazingly small if it’s normally distributed.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah I understand my mistake. I really just didn’t think to check for normalcy.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions

K

another thing is, you’ve got more goalies at the low end than the high end… that implies the high end is probably MORE rare than we realize.

This probably has something to do with the crappier guys being rotated in with a relatively high frequency… enough that there’s a fairly high number that reach 33 games, but not many that play over 50 games.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions

I don't know if this means much

But there doesn’t seem to be much of a correlation between S% and GP. The R^2 is 0.0427

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions

There shouldn't be.

that would imply SV% increases or decreases as players play more games.

Try correlating the variation in SV% and GP though and I bet there’s a correlation.

More GP should reduce variation.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions

or alternatively

more shots against means the SV% swings less wildly from player to player.

If you’re playing a lot of games, odds are your SV% isn’t moving much, and the goalies that play a lot of games tend to be better.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions

I was just thinking that you may see a higher S% with more GP. ie if you had a poor S% you were less likely to play many games.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions

yeah

but you’d be measuring it on a season to season basis… a single season really isn’t enough to get a good read on a goalie.

If you did career numbers you’d probably see a correlation.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions

you won't see a lot of

really good goalies who play very few games… because that doesn’t make much sense.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions

or alternatively

really bad goalies that play a lot of games.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions

but as I mentioned earlier

the NHL is a weird case because so few goalies make it to that level.

That’s what I referred to with the throttling effects of the minor leagues and junior earlier.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah makes sense. And the correlation isn’t much better for GP and variation (but I am using my calculated SD for variation so take it as you will). The R^2 was 0.06

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions

yeah

the smaller the sample sizes get the less meaningful some of this analysis gets.

We’re getting into data mining with a really small set of data.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions

Yup

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions

I’d say that is exactly it.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/talent_distribution_in_mlb_bell_shaped_or_right_tail/

Similar type of thing.

by Papa Squid on Mar 10, 2011 12:31 AM EST up reply actions

He was below league average which was easily expected. Him being historically bad, no. But bad nonetheless? Easy to predict.

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by PPP on Mar 9, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions

Like I needed another reason

To hate Toskala.

20 miles to Legoland!

by nhlcheapshot on Mar 9, 2011 10:10 AM EST reply actions

Whats that behind Toskala? The real problem was that he hated Waffles.

Being a Leafs fan makes me bipolar.

by BlindSight on Mar 9, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs

/anger

by samspade on Mar 9, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions

What the hell was the deal with that Yo ? !

Why would someone throw Waffles at a hockey player ?

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by FLYERROB on Mar 9, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions

Thanks for linking the spreadsheet!

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by theninjagreg on Mar 9, 2011 10:28 AM EST reply actions

My pleasure

I want everyone to see the data. I just felt there was too much on the page last time

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions

Tomas Vokoun is awesome. The fact that he hasn’t been able to drag the Panthers into the playoffs says a lot about those teams

It does. At best, Vokoun willed FLA into a bubble team

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 9, 2011 10:44 AM EST reply actions

Did a little math, along the lines of what others have definitely looked at before. My math may be wrong and it’s a complete hypothetical, but here goes.

Leafs trade for Vokoun in the summer of 2007, instead of DS Toskala. Holding everything else constant (SA, GF) and replacing Toskala’s starts per season, with Vokoun and his sv % the Leafs record improves as follows:

2007-2008; 66GP, Vokouns’ .919 sv %. Leafs finish with 90-91 points. 228 GF, 229 GA

2008-2009; 53 GP, Vokouns’ .926 sv%. Leafs finish with 94-96 points. 244 GF, 233 GA.

I didn’t bother with 2009-2010, the thought process being: if the Leafs are getting stellar tending from Vokoun, Gustavsson doesn’t see 44 starts. And maybe the Giguere trade doesn’t happen. Essentially, everything changes and your cornflakes taste different.

Summer of 2007 – Trade a 1st and two 2nd’s for Vokoun or a 1st, 2nd and 4th to SJ for Toskala and Mark Bell? Even back in 2007, I think I would’ve viewed acquiring Vokoun for 4 years as the better move.

Considering both trades happened on the same day 22Jun2007 – I wonder what shoe dropped first? Vokoun gets dealt, JFJ moves to his second option – Toskala? Anyone remember?

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 9, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions

REALLY?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!

by samspade on Mar 9, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions

FU.

by samspade on Mar 9, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions

CK.

by samspade on Mar 9, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions

do a news search...

actually check that … I’ll do it right now.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions

Vokoun

was dealt before the draft… Toskala was dealt AT the draft.

Vokoun shoe dropped first.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions

Here's a link to an NBC Sports story no it

Vokoun traded

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions

Good call on the news search.
Also, Damn.

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 9, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions

so the rumor is true – FLYERS have always had Mediocre goaltending since the Late Pelle Lindberg and the AWESOME Bernie Parent.

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by FLYERROB on Mar 9, 2011 11:19 AM EST reply actions

What about Hextall?

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions

Listen .. I LOVE RON HEXTALL – But lets call a spade a spade.. He was great but he was not top 10 and he was not a Stanley Cup winner. – I still think he is looking for Claude Lemieux’s Harmless Wrister from the blue line in the 1995 ECF against NJ Devils. (Broke My Heart)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0TEcfluM9c

I love the comment he made to Wayne-O in the 1987 Stanley Cup Finals when he won the Vezina Trophy – Wayne was stoned on a shot and he shot a look at Hexy and said “Who the F#CK are you !?” and Hexy looked back at him and said “Who the F#CK are YOU ?!” - Awesome !

I also love the Fight between Hexy and Potvin – true Rock Em Sock Em fight but Potvin the Youth had the Stamina and out fought him and won at the end.

Like I said – I LOVE RON HEXTALL – met him in Philly airport and got his autograph, – Great Guy, Nice Guy, A true Organizational Guy, But .. – Not a top 10 and not a Stanley Cup Winner.

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by FLYERROB on Mar 9, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions

YEah

But I would argue he was a very good goalie, if not a great one. He definitely wasn’t mediocre.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions

Oh No I never said Mediocre. His best season was his Rookie Season in 1987 but He was a very good goalie if not A Great Goalie, Just not a top 10. Maybe top 20 of all the goalies since 1985 – but not top 10.

Listen – I LOVE HIM. Who else would agree to what he did. FLYERS SAID "Ron, we want you to take a paycut and be our backup 2nd string goalie and with that money were going to go and get John Vanbiesbrouck and pay him fat money to be our #1 Starter.

ANYONE else would have said “Chuck You Farley ! Trade me right F@CKING Now !” but not him, He said “Ok if its the best for the team, I just want to win a Stanley Cup.”

TRUE CLASSY ORGANIZATIONAL GOALIE !

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by FLYERROB on Mar 9, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

I was replying to this

so the rumor is true – FLYERS have always had Mediocre goaltending since the Late Pelle Lindberg and the AWESOME Bernie Parent.

Thus you indirectly called Hextall mediocre

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions

LOL – ok so I misquoted what Every other NON FLYER fan has said over the past few years.

Everytime I talk to people outside Philadelphia they always say that Philadelphia has Mediocre Goaltending.

I loved Hexy !

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by FLYERROB on Mar 15, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Good stuff there.

Seeing Reimer there with 19 games worries me a little about his stats being more future projections than actual past performance. I won’t complain too much, though. He’s fun to watch when we get Leafs games in the US. Hopefully Jaroslav Halak is closer to the top than the bottom of the list despite his Jekyll-and-Hyde performance. We’ve got him for another three years in St. Louis.

by Paperwork Ninja on Mar 9, 2011 11:53 AM EST reply actions

Reimer # have been dropping steadily over the last week (chicago, islander and penguins) games all have decreased his save % and GAA. In another week he can drop another 10 spots if this continues.

by jeffgm on Mar 9, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions

it has “dropped steadily” because he let in 5 goals in one period

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 9, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions

er two periods

Rule #20

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 9, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions

Nothing a shutout won’t solve.

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by PPP on Mar 9, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions

he's declining

towards his career SV% in other leagues (which makes some sense).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions

To be fair if we make the playoffs on his back that single accomplishment is more than any single thing that Rask did last year.

False. The Bruins made the playoffs last year because of Rask.

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 9, 2011 12:09 PM EST reply actions

I doubt it. Sure, they made it in because of good goaltending, which hid their poor offense, but I’m pretty sure they would have gotten in regardless

by Ben Schnell on Mar 9, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions

Everything the Bruins have done

over the past few years has relied upon unreal goaltending.

This is the first year in a while their offense has held up it’s end of the bargain.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions

This isn't true at all

In 2008/2009 they were second in the league in Goals For/Game with 3.29

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions

we were talking about

Rask’s season I thought… which was 2009/10… but sure we can talk about that also.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions

I was replying ot this

This is the first year in a while their offense has held up it’s end of the bargain.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions

ok well

that I’ll grant you. But in 2007-08 they only had 212 goals for, which was ranked 6th worst in the NHL.

I don’t honestly have a good explanation for the offensive explosion in 2008-09… Kessel had 36 goals, Lucic had 17 goals, Wheeler had 21 goals, and Krejci had 22 goals. That’s 96 goals. The prior year they combined for 32 goals. In 2009-10 Lucic, Wheeler, and Krejci only scored 44. This year Lucic, Wheeler, and Krejci scored a combined 50, but Horton has been brought in to add 18, and Marchand has 19.

Those are pretty wild swings in production.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions

No doubt about it

08/09 was a weird year for them. I have just heard a lot of people make that claim that this is the first year in a while they have had much offense and its not true. So I always point it out. Thats all.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions

yeah fair enough

I was wrong… I completely forgot about how deep they were in Kessel’s last year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions

I don’t buy it. Thomas was still 0.228 SD above average. I think they still make it with Thomas in net. Besides if the Leaf make it, Reimer will literally have dragged them in.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions

Thomas was injured

there’s no guarantee an injured goalie that’s as old as Thomas puts up numbers like Rask. To be perfectly fair, you need to replace Rask with a replacement level goalie, not Tim Thomas. To replace him with Thomas is disingenuous at best and unfair to Rask.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions

To be honest

I forgot he got injured.

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions

Good stuff BCapp

Tomas Vokoun is awesome.

Yeah, the Hawks unfortunately learned that last night.

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by ChicagoNativeSon on Mar 9, 2011 4:49 PM EST reply actions

an Excellent Goalie on a Crappy team. and since his Contract is huge, he probably will stay there.

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by FLYERROB on Mar 9, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions

His contract is up at the end of this year. Tallon said he wanted to re-sign Vokoun, but you have to think he was bluffing for the sake of the trade deadline. He’s insane to keep a goalie that good around in the middle of Tankfest.

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by Bower Power on Mar 9, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions

I genuinely think he wants to re-sign him – as far as I know, he wasn’t up for trade at the deadline.

I also think he’s crazy and Vokoun’s likely going to jump ship.

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by chillin411 on Mar 9, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions

Tallon

is the same guy that brought in Huet and Khabibulin to backstop the Hawks rebuild… I don’t think he’s that crazy to want to hold on to Vokoun.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions

I wish I had the source

But I don’t so you’ll have to take this as heresay. But I remember reading somewhere that Vokoun WANTED to stay. ie his camp started the contract negotiations. I read it around mid-January…

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions

he gets to play hockey

and live anonymously in Florida, and he gets a shit load of money for it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 9, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions

Oh it makes sense. I just don’t have the source…

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by BCapp on Mar 9, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions

Yup can imagine some players love that.

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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 9, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions

Oh, hello there Vinny!

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by TheBurnward on Mar 9, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions

On a team that has an internal salary cap, I question the move.

Granted, not that I’ve done my due Rule 5 diligence, but I’d imagine Florida is not a team that drafts very well. I’ll be gladly proven wrong, but just a hunch on my part. In that situation, it may be better to attempt to hold onto Vokoun.

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by chillin411 on Mar 10, 2011 1:00 AM EST up reply actions

They have

A new GM so I question the validity of judging their previous draft history (before last year. Obv you can judge Gubdranson (sp?)). I don’t know if there has been much change in their amateur scouts though.

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by BCapp on Mar 10, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions

Bottom line

I think most of us would be more than happy to see Vokoun stay in Florida.

It will be interesting to see if Tallon is willing to pay him top dollar since he was snakebit twice with Khabi and Huet. On the other hand, Florida isn’t anywhere near where the Hawks were at the time and will probably need a top 5 goalie if they’re going to be competitive.

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by ChicagoNativeSon on Mar 12, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions