Leafs Draft Pick Stats Analysis - Part 2
Yesterday we ran through the first four selections of the Leafs 2011 Draft, describing statistical comparables and running through some ideas of their potential. I may have come across as a tad harsh with respect to the Leafs first of two first round selections, Tyler Biggs. Before the angry e-mails get sent my way, I should point out that I did not and would not predict that Biggs will be a failure in the NHL. He may yet develop into a consistent offensive contributor, but at this stage, there is little in his offensive output to indicate that is likely. Hope springs eternal, and the Leafs scouting staff obviously see a few things in Biggs game that they value highly. His size, truculence and solid skating are definite positives, and will likely serve him well in making his way to the NHL. My main concern is that the Leafs traded away a high 2nd round pick in order to move up to draft a player that is unlikely to be significantly more important to their future than a player they could have selected at the 30 slot (where they were originally positioned).
If one looks at the list of players taken between 22 and 30 (minus the 25th selection Stuart Percy who also went to the Leafs), there is no reason to assume Joe Morrow, Matt Puempel, Zack Phillips, Nicklas Jensen, Vladislav Namestikinov, Rickard Rakell, Phillip Danault... or even second round selections David Musil, Ty Rattie, Rocco Grimaldi, Tomas Jurco, Boone Jenner, Scott Mayfield, Dmitrij Jaskin, Victor Rask, Alexander Khokhlachev, Brandon Saad, Brett Ritchie, or Nikita Kucherov couldn't provide a comparable contribution in other aspects of the game to what Biggs would.
The plus side in the non-trade scenario is that the Leafs would now boast 3 of these players, or 2 more in addition to Percy (or Biggs, or whomever else would have fallen to them). Do not mistake my disdain for Biggs' upside as an indictment of the player selected. I'm more perturbed that the difference he will make is relatively insignificant in comparison to the difference presented by any of the other players in his range, and certainly is unlikely to be significantly superior to two players from that group.
Moving on from this discussion though, let us examine the remainder of the Leafs selections from the 2011 NHL Entry Draft.
Tony Cameranesi - 130th overall
The story on Cameranesi starts and stops with one aspect of his game: speed. Cameranesi is quite possibly the best skater available in the 2011 draft, and his acceleration and explosiveness are quite remarkable. That's important because his size (5'9" and 160 lbs) doesn't help him stand out from the competition in a serious way.
He's made a verbal declaration to play with Minnesota-Duluth of the WCHA for this upcoming season so he should get some solid exposure on a top NCAA program over the next few years. He was one of the top HS players in Minnesota this past season while lining up for Wayzata HS and Team Northwest in the Minnesota Elite league. He had the 14th highest point per game production rate amongst US High School players under the age of 18 (2.16 ppg). In the MN Elite league he posted 16 goals and 33 points in 21 games for a 1.57 ppg scoring rate. Overall in his HS hockey career he's posted 132 points in 72 games for a 1.83 ppg production rate.
Just by way of comparison here are some production rates from other Minnesota High Schoolers from recent seasons that you may recognize:
| Player | Year | Age | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG |
| TJ Oshie | 2004-05 | 17 | 31 | 37 | 62 | 99 | 3.19 |
| Sidney Crosby | 2002-03 | 15 | 57 | 72 | 90 | 162 | 2.84 |
| Zach Parise | 2000-02 | 16-17 | 125 | 146 | 194 | 340 | 2.72 |
| Mike Hoeffel | 2005-06 | 17 | 31 | 30 | 40 | 70 | 2.26 |
| Dan DeLisle | 2008-09 | 18 | 24 | 30 | 22 | 52 | 2.17 |
| Max Gardiner | 2008-10 | 17-18 | 48 | 37 | 57 | 94 | 1.96 |
| Max Tardy | 2008-09 | 18 | 25 | 28 | 20 | 48 | 1.92 |
| Drew Stafford | 2001-03 | 16-17 | 109 | 84 | 120 | 204 | 1.87 |
| Tony Cameranesi | 2009-11 | 16-17 | 72 | 47 | 85 | 132 | 1.83 |
| Jonathan Toews | 2004-05 | 17 | 64 | 48 | 62 | 110 | 1.72 |
| Jake Gardiner | 2007-08 | 17 | 25 | 16 | 27 | 43 | 1.72 |
| Erik Haula | 2008-09 | 18 | 53 | 26 | 58 | 84 | 1.58 |
| Kyle Okposo | 2004-05 | 16 | 65 | 47 | 45 | 92 | 1.42 |
| Tyler Ruegsegger | 2004-06 | 17-18 | 127 | 64 | 105 | 169 | 1.33 |
| Angelo Esposito | 2004-05 | 16 | 68 | 31 | 35 | 66 | 0.97 |
| Joe Basaraba | 2008-10 | 17-18 | 106 | 44 | 46 | 90 | 0.85 |
I'm throwing this up for the sake of those that have no idea how to rate high school hockey players in Minnesota. Obviously he's in some decent company. Many of those names listed above played at the renowned hockey factory prep school, Shattuck St. Mary's, who don't play a regular Minnesota HS schedule, but play tournaments and individual games against a wide variety teams from across the US and Canada. This often includes elite state teams, such as the Minnesota Northwest Elite team that Cameranesi played for this past season. His 1.57 ppg rate on the Elite team would still put him well above the level of Ruegsegger and more on par with the likes of Okposo or Toews.
Based on his offensive production thus far, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that he'll be granted a top offensive role with NCAA National Champions Minnesota-Duluth as early as next season. With the graduation of the likes of senior forwards Justin Fontaine and Kyle Schmidt, new Leafs prospect Cameranesi will be in competition with other recently drafted players like Max Tardy (St. Louis), Joe Basaraba (Florida), and Dan DeLisle (Chicago) for a role on the top lines.
Here's a compilation video of highlights from 5 of his games this past season:
David Broll - 152nd overall
Broll is another Burke type selection. A big, bruising, physical winger with little in the way of offensive upside. Broll was one of the oldest players selected by the Leafs at the draft, born on January 4th of 1993. He is also likely the biggest at a robust 6'2" and 220 lbs. He posted 13 goals and 21 assists for 34 points in an OHL season split between Erie and Sault Ste. Marie. That went along with 85 penalty minutes largely on the merits of 12 separate fighting majors. He also registered a relatively significant concussion in a mid-season in a fight against Justin Sefton of the Sudbury Wolves, shown below:
Frankly I'm not a huge fan of picks like this, but I suppose we should expect it from Burke. Broll can be added to the likes of Richard Greenop, Jamie Devane, and heck, even Brad Ross and Tyler Biggs in the ranks of "tough" Leafs prospects for the future. It'll be interesting to see how many of these guys do end up in the NHL in the next 5 years. I'd put the over under at 2 for starters, although I think on the basis of Devane's last season he still has a shot.
Here is a description of Broll from a scouting evaluation, courtesy Scott McDougall of The Scouting Report, at the Canadian U18 selection camp prior to the Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tourney:
Broll was the oldest and biggest player in camp. He was by far the most physical player at camp and had several massive hits. He didn’t handle the puck too well, his skating was poor, and his acceleration even worse, but he made everyone aware of when he was on the ice with his big checks. He may not have the skills to be an NHL player, but some teams are going to absolutely love his physical presence as a bottom 6 forward if he can improve his skating.
On this basis I assume we can look forward to Broll working hard at skating a bit better as we move forwards. I guess Colton Orr won't be the Leafs enforcer forever.
Denis Robertson - 173rd overall
Robertson is a late bloomer in many senses. Drafted at 20 years of age, he's easily the oldest Leaf draft pick of the 2011 selection. Having completed 1 year of NCAA Div. 1 hockey with Brown University of the ECAC, Robertson was named to the ECAC All-Rookie team for the 2010-11 season after posting 6 goals and 11 assists for 17 points in 30 games.
There isn't a lot to go on here beyond the fact that Robertson played with the Langley Chiefs in the BCHL for two years, and was their 2nd highest scoring D man in his final season behind St. Cloud State D man Tim Daly. He has a "booming" shot from the point and could perhaps develop solidly if he gets more opportunity going forward. Here's a quote regarding Robertson's play from US College Hockey Online ECAC Columnist Bryan Sullivan:
"The biggest surprise is [Dennis] Robertson, who has four goals, all on the power play. He’s an excellent defenseman and he’s got an absolute cannon for a shot from the point."
Robertson is a 6’1″, 205-pound rookie blue-liner out of rustic-sounding Fort St. John, B.C. It sounds like the kind of place that breeds lumberjacks and explorers, and the town’s native son is representing it well with a lot of heavy lifting and a lot of goal exploration. Robertson’s blasts are playing well in Providence, as his four goals are the second-most on the team.
"Dennis is a guy that we had high expectations for. He was a very very good player in the BCHL. But to say that we expected him to have four goals, to say that we expected him to be logging 25 or 30 minutes a game, I don’t think those were our expectations. You never really know when a freshman comes in... there’s a large adjustment period, especially for a defenseman. For him to be able to come in and do what he’s been able to do is a tribute to him. He’s pretty high-end; he’s a good, good hockey player."
Robertson has played a big part in a resurgent Brown power play, a unit that has scored on nine of 32 opportunities (better than 28 percent) on the heels of last year’s barren 13 percent success rate. The PP corps has accounted for more than a third of the team’s offense — an offense that has scored 10 more goals (25 total) than it had through the same number of games last season.
Sounds like a sleeper pick if ever there was one. Robertson may yet have some offensive upside, and based on how the Leafs have been selecting over-age D men in the past few years, it's not a strange sight at this point... just ask Carl Gunnarsson.
Garret Sparks - 190th overall
Another American draft pick of the Leafs, this time a goaltender Garret Sparks of Elmhurst Illinois, who played in 19 games this past year for the Guelph Storm of the OHL. Standing in at 6'2" and 209 lbs, Sparks fits the mold of big body keepers that goalie guru Francois Allaire likes to work with.
As an OHL rookie, Sparks recorded an 8-6-1 record with a 3.64 GAA and .890 SV% at the age of 17. For comparison we can look at the numbers of 4th year incumbent Guelph starter Brandon Foote, who posted a 24-19-6 record with a 3.60 GAA and .895 SV% in 51 games at the age of 19. Thus it's fair to say that Sparks was pretty comparable to the regular starter, and the team didn't play particularly worse in front of the rookie keeper.
Here are some other comparables for 17 year old goalies in recent OHL memory:
| Goalie | Team | Season | GP | W-L-OTL | GAA | SV% |
| Malcolm Subban | Bellville Bulls | 10-11 | 32 | 10-17-2 | 3.16 | .900 |
| Matt Mahalak | Plymouth Whalers | 10-11 | 21 | 8-8-4 | 3.08 | .908 |
| Jordan Binnington | Owen Sound Attack | 10-11 | 46 | 27-12-5 | 3.05 | .899 |
| Andrew D'Agostini | Peterborough Petes | 10-11 | 43 | 10-25-2 | 4.35 | .882 |
| Mark Visentin | Niagara Ice Dogs | 09-10 | 55 | 24-26-5 | 2.99 | .911 |
| J.P. Anderson | St. Mike's Majors | 08-09 | 36 | 23-10-1 | 2.60 | .899 |
| Peter Di Salvo | Barrie Colts | 08-09 | 34 | 15-13-4 | 2.83 | .919 |
| Michael Houser | London Knights | 09-10 | 25 | 17-4-1 | 3.10 | .900 |
| Phillipp Grubauer | Bellville Bulls | 08-09 | 17 | 7-8-0 | 3.93 | .888 |
Frankly it's virtually impossible to tell how a goalie is going to pan out based on their numbers as a 17 year old, so I'm going to trust that Allaire and the Leafs goalie scouts have half a clue in helping the team pick a good goalie prospect. He's seemed to manage alright generally so far.
Max Everson - 203rd overall
Back in 2010, before the 2010-11 hockey season began, Everson was in the running for Mr. Hockey in Minnesota along with fellow Leaf draft pick Tony Cameranesi. He is touted as a two way D-man with solid skating and good puck handling skills, though less than impressive size at 6' 180 lbs. He apparently has a heavy shot despite his lack of size, and makes a good first pass to get the puck up ice.
The best scouting report I've seen thus far on Everson comes courtesy of Kirk Luedke, a writer for the New England and New York Hockey Journals. He interviewed Max Giese, the director of player personnel for the USHL's Chicago Steel, and Red Line Report's NCAA, USHL, and US HS scout for the midwest and got the following:
"At first I thought he had a great game. When he wanted to, he could take over the game with his ability to transition to offense. I like his feet; he's a real good skater, but I noticed that he didn't use the feet offensively in terms of leading the rush and using his speed to exploit the defense. Another interesting aspect of his skating is that he's the same skater he was two years ago, so you'd like to have seen some improvement from him. You can see he's gotten stronger, but not necessarily faster. Instead of a powerful, wide-based stride, he has kind of a backwards kick to his movement, which I think is a detriment. If he can fix that, I think he could be one of the better skating defensemen out there.
He's got a real hard shot and can quarterback the power play. He moves pretty well on the point. But the thing with Everson that I've noticed is that he's one of those guys who won't make the play if it's not there. What I mean by that is that he's not a dynamic guy who you watch and then say to yourself, 'How did he find that lane?' He tends to take what he's given which isn't a bad thing, but you wonder about his creativity and whether he's going to be able to bring the offense at the next level.
He may end up being a steady, stay-at-home shutdown guy with his feet, stick and defensive sense, but I don't know if that's a great thing. Is he going to be a 'tweener? It's tough to be a shutdown guy in the NHL when you're only about 6-feet."
He's declared for Harvard, and that may not be the best thing as the Crimson haven't developed many NHL Defenders (Alex Biega not withstanding). It makes sense for him as his older brother Marshall also plays for Harvard, and the team does feature 8 NHL draft picks entering next season. Hopefully they develop as a unit and Everson fulfills some of his potential.
So that's that everyone, feel free to discuss further below.
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Cameranesi was easily my favourite pick of the draft.
He’s obviously a long shot (as most 3rd round or later picks are) but I love kids with speed.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Looking at the numbers
He and Leivo are basically equivalent to our McKegg/Nicholls, and D’Amigo picks over the past few years. I’m fine with picking players like this with upside potential in the later rounds, particularly if size might be an issue.
He’s off the charts in one area, and that should hopefully make up for some of his other areas of weakness. Also with the fact that he’s declared for college, we don’t have to sign him to a contract unless he really looks like he’s going to pan out into a regular player (at least at the AHL level).
I like the pick too.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
and that scoring rate is a nice surprise too.
Going in, all i wanted was skaters with the potential to score at the NHL level. Based on everything I’ve seen, I think that means Leivo and him are my favourites so far.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
forwards especially
i meant to say. Not just “skaters”
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Don't put too much weight into his point production... he's not in a very tough league.
We’ll see how he does going forward, but don’t expect 1.5-2.0 point-per-game performances once he’s in NCAA.
Now he just needs to fill out while keeping his speed…. easier said than done I bet.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 27, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
most of those players
moved on to junior or college ranks after their time in Minnesota High Schools. We won’t really know where he fits in until we see how he puts up points at UMD… but at THIS point he’s in pretty elite company.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Winnipeg hockey wives
They have put out a welcome mat for Thrashers, I got a look at a copy.
http://thinkingaboot.blogspot.com/2011/06/peg-hockey-wives-winnipeg-highlights.html
Tyler Biggs
Hi Steve, I have to agree with your assessment of Tyler Biggs. Maybe Burke saw something special there, a Wendel Clarke, but nothing he has done so far indicates he will be more than a 3rd or 4th line banger, and in todays NHL you can pick those guys up every year for a pittance, now getting the right ones is not easy, but why not take Jurco with that pick?
I wouldn't have selected Jurco to be honest
He’s too much of a question mark when it comes to work ethic on the ice for me. He shows up randomly in the right spots but it never looks like he’s pushing himself.
I would have preferred a pick like Phillips, Grimaldi, Kucherov, or Rask.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
and before
anyone questions the Kucherov idea, he set a World U18 record for scoring with 21 points, and I think he’d come play for the Leafs thanks to the likes of Kulemin and Grabovski (which may be a pipe dream I know).
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Russians took a beating this draft. Only 8 selected in total out of 209 picks.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 27, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
I knew there weren’t many selected, but that is insane. Wonder what the # of Russian picks looks like over the last few years.
I don’t even know how I would find something like that out. I’m dumb when it comes to hockey-reference and other sites like that, not even sure if that site would have it. Steve, any tips? I know you’re a wizard at finding out stuff like this.
Easily done
go to www.eliteprospects.com and look at the draft pages, then select by country of origin.
As of the past few drafts:
2011: 9 of 209
2010: 8 of 210
2009: 7 of 211
2008: 9 players… etc.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
opportunity
I am surprised more teams dont hit for the fences with Russians, I looked up
Kucherov, very impressive, (Tampa 58th) and even if they play until 25 in Russia, its still a pretty good player you have locked up, and in the end its all about money, but the NHL is the big time, and the real players are going to come here eventually.
Is this a new trend since the KHL? I always thought that the Russians were number 3 behind Canadians and Americans.
I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!
by BCapp on Jun 27, 2011 5:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Historically
Russians and Swedes are now neck and neck, but in recent years, the Swedes have taken over as the number 3 spot for drafted players to originate, and then Finland, Czech, Slovakia, and places like Austria, Switzerland, Norway, and even France are entering the mix… Russia is definitely a result of the KHL, they also now have a KHL junior league to prevent poaching by the CHL.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
in 2006
there were 15 selected… then in 2007 there were 9 selected.
In 2005: 11 selected
2004: 20 selected
2003: 30 selected
2002: 34 selected
2001: 36 selected
2000: 41 selected
1999: 29 selected
1998: 22 selected
1997: 18 selected
Overall it looks like it slowly built up to that peak in 2000, then it ratcheted back down and now it’s way below historic highs.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps there is a strategy to draft older D-men since they take longer to develop. It might make it easier to determine the potential than it would be Shan taking a ‘younger’ player.
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 27, 2011 4:45 PM EDT reply actions
interesting thought
I also wonder why this isn’t the case with goalies… it seems more and more like goalies are getting picked earlier, which is strange given how hard their development appears to be to track historically. Although it looks like top end goalies are top end at a young age.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The way Cameranesi skates in those videos
It just looks so effortless. It’s as if he’s just gliding around poor defencemen to get to the net. I love this pick.
Everson intrigues me as well.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
it all aligns
with Burke building team America North in Toronto.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
America, fuck yeah!

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
I’ve got to say that I don’t think Biggs needs to produce all that much offensively to be a great pick. It may be out of reach but if he can put up 15-20 goals and 45 points playing on the 2nd line I’d consider him a steal.
45 points
would be 2nd line level… so would 15-20 goals… if he puts up less than that he’s doing what we expect… you’re basically saying “if he outperforms expectations he’s a steal”… which is true of most players in the draft.
He was taken 22nd overall, being a 2nd line forward who produces 40-45 points would be solid in that spot. The problem is, there’s nothing to indicate he’s going to do that at this stage.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
True, that is the case with any player who’s not top 5 or so. It’s unlikely that any player the Leafs draft at #30 or #39 make much of an impact either, but with Biggs’ physical attributes and demeanor I like his upside enough to like the pick.
Even if he ends up a 3rd liner, does his toughness and willingness to drop the gloves mean you don’t need to put a guy like Colton Orr in the line-up? That would free up a spot for someone more useful, maybe a PK specialist, without sacrificing toughness.
by Mirinov's Nose on Jun 27, 2011 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
like I said
if we end up with David Clarkson here I’m not sure that makes it a decent pick. You can get players like that much later than 22nd overall.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe not in every draft.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 27, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
since David Clarkson
was undrafted… I’d have to say you can get them without a draft at all… so yes… every draft.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
foiled by my own words
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 28, 2011 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions
To me what makes it a safe pick is that he looks like a blue chip prospect if you’re talking about an energy guy who can fight. If you’re lucky he can score a bit and cause enough trouble in front of the net to let his linemates generate offense. If he’s the former he’s a 1st round disappointment but at least he’s playing, if he can put up 2nd line numbers he’s a home run.
by Mirinov's Nose on Jun 27, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
the term blue chip prospect
is not something you use along with the terms ‘energy guy that can fight’.
Blue Chip prospects are top line potential impact players, not guys that fit in on your 4th line.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
this is a silly argument. you can also get players that never play in the NHL with the 22nd overall pick. that would be better?
Congratulations Tomas!
no
but 3rd and 4th line checkers with energy are not typically first round draft picks.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
also
Biggs hasn’t played in the NHL with the 22nd pick yet either… so I’m not certain why we’re 100% beyond a doubt guaranteeing he ends up there.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 27, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I really
don’t understand why people are so attached to this kid… I’m not saying he’s shitty… I just think it’s dumb to trade away a pick in a comparable range (39) just to move up to get a guy who isn’t far and away superior to the next 15-20 players that were drafted.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather have
3 kids who may or may not make the NHL than 2… why is that so difficult to understand?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
that’s funny, i’m not certain why we’re 100% beyond a doubt guaranteeing he ends up like David Clarkson.
Congratulations Tomas!
I'm not
I never said that anywhere.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
also
I think it’s funny that you think saying my arguments are funny and silly makes dismissing my point logical.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
why is Biggs
a superior pick to the next 20 kids taken after him? what makes him worth a high 2nd round draft pick… because that’s what you traded to get him.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Nikita
Filatov was just traded for a 3rd round pick…is Biggs worth that much more than Nikita Filatov?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup
I think Filatov at this point has to be considered a bust. He couldn’t catch on with Columbus, among the shallowest teams in the league. He did not or could not adapt to the system put in place by the coach. Not exactly the makings of an NHL caliber player.
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Jun 28, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Biggs
is at least, not a bust (yet)
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Jun 28, 2011 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
but I still think his upside offensively makes me think it’s bizarre to value Biggs more highly.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I know
I didn’t guarantee he was going to play 200 NHL games either. that’s the point.
Congratulations Tomas!
you
disagreeing with me thinking it’s a bad move to trade a high 2nd round pick for a player that’s not particularly superior to the players drafted immediately after him is equivalent to saying you didn’t guarantee he’s going to play 200 games? I’m not sure how that works.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
isn't that
“the point”?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I found the point
this argument is silly
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 28, 2011 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions
of course they are. go find me a list of all the 3rd and 4th liners that were former first round picks. there are plenty.
Congratulations Tomas!
you think MOST 3rd and 4th liners
were taken in the first round? because that’s what I said and it’s what you’re disputing.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I've just
looked at the 1st round of the drafts from 2008-2004… not reading a lot of 3rd and 4th liner names at this point… maybe 3 or 4…
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe 2 or 3 more
in 2003… a particularly deep draft though.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
ok 2002
there you go… half that first round is 3rd/4th line talent.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
2001
maybe the last 5-10 picks are largely 3rd and 4th liners.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
ok so
if this draft is particularly bad… like the 2002 draft… then I guess he’s a “good” pick? Although why you’d trade up to get a guy that has that potential is still confusing to me.
Why are you wasting selections in a bad draft in that case?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jun 28, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
To me the reason they traded up was that unlike the other players behind him with “potential” and plenty of knocks as well, this guy brought a few elements to the table that are undeniably heavy in his physical game, size, energy, etc. So we know as a baseline what to expect.
If any of us had even the foggiest notion of how many games the scouts watched and how many hundreds of man hours went into each of the guys selected before and after Biggs we would be qualified to tell you why they grabbed him. Until then I am happy to know that we grabbed a guy who will likely be bashing out there at 6’, 3"/230, has been called a nightmare to play against by opposing coaches and who singlehandedly opened up Team Canada for both goals in the Gold Medal game.
Your favorite non-Leaf team now features 110% more suckulence.
by Guy Dudeman on Jun 28, 2011 7:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
all forwards drafted b/w 22nd and 30th b/w 94 and 06
if we get a useful player out of our pick, then it’s a good pick. if you think it’s better to draft someone with a ‘higher ceiling’ that ends up not playing in the NHL – just because at least you were ‘trying’ to get elite talent – then we’ll just have to disagree.
Yr Rd # Team Name Pos GP G A Pts
1994 1 24 Pittsburgh Chris Wells C 195 9 20 29
1994 1 25 New Jersey Vadim Sharifijanov L 92 16 21 37
1994 2 28 Anaheim Johan Davidsson L 83 6 9 15
1995 1 23 Washington Miika Elomo L 2 0 1 1
1995 1 24 Pittsburgh Aleksey Morozov R 451 84 135 219
1995 2 28 NY Islanders Jan Hlavac L 436 90 134 224
1995 2 29 Anaheim Brian Wesenberg R 1 0 0 0
1996 1 24 Phoenix Danny Briere C 743 264 330 594
1996 2 29 NY Islanders Dan LaCouture L 337 20 25 45
1996 2 30 Los Angeles Josh Green W 334 35 39 74
1997 1 25 Dallas Brenden Morrow L 749 226 265 491
1997 2 28 Carolina Brad DeFauw L 9 3 0 3
1997 2 29 Los Angeles Scott Barney R 27 5 6 11
1998 1 22 Philadelphia Simon Gagne L 727 276 288 564
1998 1 23 Pittsburgh Milan Kraft C 207 41 41 82
1998 1 27 New Jersey Scott Gomez C 864 167 508 675
1998 2 28 Colorado Ramzi Abid L 136 28 32 60
1998 2 29 San Jose Jonathan Cheechoo R 501 170 135 305
1999 1 24 Toronto Luca Cereda C 0 0 0 0
1999 1 25 Colorado Mikhail Kuleshov L 3 0 0 0
1999 1 26 Ottawa Martin Havlat L 621 209 303 512
1999 2 29 Washington Michal Sivek C 38 3 3 6
2000 1 23 Vancouver Nathan Smith C 26 0 0 0
2000 1 24 Toronto Brad Boyes C 493 150 199 349
2000 1 25 Dallas Steve Ott C 492 74 107 181
2000 1 26 Washington Brian Sutherby C 460 41 49 90
2000 1 27 Boston Martin Samuelsson R 14 0 1 1
2000 1 28 Philadelphia Justin Williams R 625 157 249 406
2000 1 30 St. Louis Jeff Taffe C 175 21 23 44
2001 1 22 Buffalo Jiri Novotny C 189 20 31 51
2001 1 25 Montreal Alexander Perezhogin R 128 15 19 34
2001 1 28 New Jersey Adrian Foster C 0 0 0 0
2001 1 30 Los Angeles David Steckel C 309 24 35 59
2002 1 22 NY Islanders Sean Bergenheim L 326 54 55 109
2002 1 23 Phoenix Ben Eager L 323 34 35 69
2002 1 24 Toronto Alex Steen C 454 100 148 248
2002 1 27 San Jose Mike Morris F 0 0 0 0
2002 1 28 Colorado Jonas Johansson R 1 0 0 0
2002 1 30 Atlanta Jim Slater C 371 47 53 100
2003 1 22 Edmonton Marc Pouliot C 179 21 32 53
2003 1 23 Vancouver Ryan Kesler C 484 131 157 288
2003 1 24 Philadelphia Mike Richards C 453 133 216 349
2003 1 25 Florida Anthony Stewart R 185 18 33 51
2003 1 26 Los Angeles Brian Boyle F 189 33 18 51
2003 1 27 Los Angeles Jeff Tambellini L 242 27 36 63
2003 1 28 Anaheim Corey Perry R 450 168 201 369
2003 1 29 Ottawa Patrick Eaves R 370 70 62 132
2004 1 22 San Jose Lukas Kaspar L 16 2 2 4
2004 1 24 Calgary Kris Chucko R 2 0 0 0
2004 1 25 Edmonton Rob Schremp C 114 20 34 54
2005 1 23 New Jersey Niclas Bergfors R 162 34 47 81
2005 1 24 St. Louis T.J. Oshie C 182 44 77 121
2005 1 25 Edmonton Andrew Cogliano C 328 57 89 146
2005 1 29 Philadelphia Steve Downie R 197 41 55 96
2006 1 22 Philadelphia Claude Giroux R 208 50 100 150
2006 1 25 St. Louis Patrik Berglund C 228 56 69 125
2006 1 28 Ottawa Nick Foligno L 269 46 55 101
Congratulations Tomas!
more lists while I'm here
forwards drafted 22nd since 1994
Yr Rd # Team Name Pos GP G A Pts
1998 1 22 Philadelphia Simon Gagne L 727 276 288 564
2001 1 22 Buffalo Jiri Novotny C 189 20 31 51
2002 1 22 NY Islanders Sean Bergenheim L 326 54 55 109
2003 1 22 Edmonton Marc Pouliot C 179 21 32 53
2004 1 22 San Jose Lukas Kaspar L 16 2 2 4
2006 1 22 Philadelphia Claude Giroux R 208 50 100 150
2007 1 22 Montreal Max Pacioretty L 123 20 29 49
2008 1 22 Edmonton Jordan Eberle C 69 18 25 43
2009 1 22 Vancouver Canucks Jordan Schroeder 0 0 0 0
2010 1 22 Montreal Canadiens Jarred Tinordi 0 0 0 0
forwards drafted 30th
Yr Rd # Team Name Pos GP G A Pts
1996 2 30 Los Angeles Josh Green W 334 35 39 74
2000 1 30 St. Louis Jeff Taffe C 175 21 23 44
2001 1 30 Los Angeles David Steckel C 309 24 35 59
2002 1 30 Atlanta Jim Slater C 371 47 53 100
2009 1 30 Pittsburgh Penguins Simon Despres 0 0 0 0
2010 1 30 New York Islanders Brock Nelson 0 0 0 0
forwards drafted 39th
Yr Rd # Team Name Pos GP G A Pts
1994 2 39 Vancouver Robb Gordon C 4 0 0 0
1995 2 39 NY Rangers Christian Dube R 33 1 1 2
1996 2 39 Calgary Travis Brigley L 55 3 6 9
1997 2 39 Chicago Jeremy Reich L 99 2 4 6
1999 2 39 Montreal Alexander Buturlin R 0 0 0 0
2000 2 39 New Jersey Teemu Laine F 0 0 0 0
2002 2 39 Calgary Brian McConnell F 0 0 0 0
2005 2 39 Boston Petr Kalus R 11 4 1 5
2006 2 39 Philadelphia Andreas Nodl R 115 12 15 27
2007 2 39 St. Louis Simon Hjalmarsson R 0 0 0 0
2008 2 39 Anaheim Eric O’Dell C 0 0 0 0
2009 2 39 Ottawa Senators Jakob Silfverberg 0 0 0 0
2010 2 39 Minnesota Wild Brett Bulmer 0 0 0 0
22 for 30+39 looks like a smart move from here.
Congratulations Tomas!
full list, not just forwards
show me the year again where it was a big loss to trade 30/39 for 22? yeah i can’t find it either…
Yr Rd # Team Name Pos GP G A Pts
1994 1 22 Quebec Nordiques Jeffrey Kealty D 0 0 0 0
1994 2 30 Winnipeg Deron Quint D 463 46 97 143
1994 2 39 Vancouver Robb Gordon C 4 0 0 0
1995 1 22 Philadelphia Brian Boucher G 280 0 3 3
1995 2 30 Tampa Bay Mike McBain D 64 0 7 7
1995 2 39 NY Rangers Christian Dube R 33 1 1 2
1996 1 22 NY Rangers Jeff Brown D 0 0 0 0
1996 2 30 Los Angeles Josh Green W 334 35 39 74
1996 2 39 Calgary Travis Brigley L 55 3 6 9
1997 1 22 Carolina Nikos Tselios D 2 0 0 0
1997 2 30 Philadelphia Jean-Marc Pelletier G 7 0 0 0
1997 2 39 Chicago Jeremy Reich L 99 2 4 6
1998 1 22 Philadelphia Simon Gagne L 727 276 288 564
1998 2 30 Florida Kyle Rossiter D 11 0 1 1
1998 2 39 Dallas John Erskine D 396 11 31 42
1999 1 22 Philadelphia Maxime Ouellet G 12 0 1 1
1999 2 30 Atlanta Luke Sellars D 1 0 0 0
1999 2 39 Montreal Alexander Buturlin R 0 0 0 0
2000 1 22 New Jersey David Hale D 327 4 25 29
2000 1 30 St. Louis Jeff Taffe C 175 21 23 44
2000 2 39 New Jersey Teemu Laine F 0 0 0 0
2001 1 22 Buffalo Jiri Novotny C 189 20 31 51
2001 1 30 Los Angeles David Steckel C 309 24 35 59
2001 2 39 Toronto Karel Pilar D 90 6 24 30
2002 1 22 NY Islanders Sean Bergenheim L 326 54 55 109
2002 1 30 Atlanta Jim Slater C 371 47 53 100
2002 2 39 Calgary Brian McConnell F 0 0 0 0
2003 1 22 Edmonton Marc Pouliot C 179 21 32 53
2003 1 30 St. Louis Shawn Belle D 20 0 1 1
2003 2 39 Calgary Tim Ramholt D 1 0 0 0
2004 1 22 San Jose Lukas Kaspar L 16 2 2 4
2004 1 30 Tampa Bay Andy Rogers D 0 0 0 0
2004 2 39 Anaheim Jordan Smith D 0 0 0 0
2005 1 22 Boston Matt Lashoff D 74 1 15 16
2005 1 30 Tampa Bay Vladimir Mihalik D 15 0 3 3
2005 2 39 Boston Petr Kalus R 11 4 1 5
2006 1 22 Philadelphia Claude Giroux R 208 50 100 150
2006 1 30 New Jersey Matthew Corrente D 22 0 6 6
2006 2 39 Philadelphia Andreas Nodl R 115 12 15 27
2007 1 22 Montreal Max Pacioretty L 123 20 29 49
2007 1 30 Phoenix Nick Ross D 0 0 0 0
2007 2 39 St. Louis Simon Hjalmarsson R 0 0 0 0
2008 1 22 Edmonton Jordan Eberle C 69 18 25 43
2008 1 30 Detroit Thomas McCollum G 0 0 0 0
2008 2 39 Anaheim Eric O’Dell C 0 0 0 0
2009 1 22 Vancouver Canucks Jordan Schroeder 0 0 0 0
2009 1 30 Pittsburgh Penguins Simon Despres 0 0 0 0
2009 2 39 Ottawa Senators Jakob Silfverberg 0 0 0 0
2010 1 22 Montreal Canadiens Jarred Tinordi 0 0 0 0
2010 1 30 New York Islanders Brock Nelson 0 0 0 0
2010 2 39 Minnesota Wild Brett Bulmer 0 0 0 0
Congratulations Tomas!
Just my 2 cents on Biggs...
I like the pick. I don’t like where the pick happened. I really think he would have fallen to the 25 slot, and if that’s the case, we basically gave away #39. If Biggs can be our version of Milan Lucic (and I think he can do it) I’ll be stoked. But I understand the concerns – low ceiling, prototypical energy guy, etc. I’m just going to sit here, I think, and hope Burkie and his staff know what that heck they’re doing.
I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.
by leafsfan4life94 on Jun 28, 2011 12:09 AM EDT reply actions
I’d just be more comfortable if people said “low offensive ceiling”. I think that with his toughness, his willingness to battle and his ability to win battles that if there’s a possibility he can put up even low end 2nd line points his ceiling is very high. Again, I’m not saying I’m confident he can score like that but I like that upside more than that of a more offensively skilled player with enough holes in his game to slip to 30 or 39.
by Mirinov's Nose on Jun 28, 2011 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions

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