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Stamkos and Kessel: their 2nd and 3rd NHL Seasons

EDIT: Title modified in case it was too provocative.

There has been a lot of discussion recently about Steven Stamkos and potential offer sheets or trades.  At first glance, based on his goal-scoring ability, Stamkos seems to deserve Crosby/Ovechkin dollars.  I'm not so convinced.  I think he's closer to Phil Kessel levels.

I know it sounds ludicrous but please, join me after the jump and find out how I came to this conclusion.

Star-divide

Below is a table comparing the two players.  Kessel's past 2 seasons with Toronto are also shown for completeness (they won't be discussed in-depth in this post but feel free to discuss further in the comments).  The numbers were taken from behindthenet.ca and nhl.com.

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Kessel's 2007-2008 season will be compared to Stamkos' 2009-2010 while Kessel's 2008-2009 season will be compared to Stamkos' 2010-2011 season.


Kessel 2007-2008 versus Stamkos 2009-2010

Stamkos scored 51 goals in his second season in the NHL.  Kessel only scored 19.  Why?

Firstly, Stamkos played 1685 minutes while Kessel played 1250 minutes.

Secondly, Stamkos received a great deal of offensive zone starts (54.6%) whereas Kessel started in the defensive zone most of the time (46.8% offensive zone starts).  This gave Stamkos an immediate advantage in terms of goal-scoring opportunities.  Though he was aided by better quality teammates, Kessel was still at a significant disadvantage.

Personally, I am not a big fan of the quality of competition statistics for comparing players on different teams but it does provide some value.  Stamkos and Kessel both faced the 7th toughest competition for their clubs (among forwards playing more than 30 games), based on their Corsi Rel QoC statistics.  Nevertheless, it does look like Kessel faced tougher competition overall, with a Corsi QoC value of 0.27 versus -0.12.

In terms of possession, Kessel easily comes out on top with a Corsi On of 6.99, much greater than Stamkos' -4.38.  Furthermore, Kessel outshot the opposition more than his teammates (Corsi QoT of 3.01) whereas Stamkos was outshot more than his teammates (Corsi QoT of -3.95).  Kessel's Corsi Rel was good for 3rd on Boston (among forwards with more than 30 GP).  Stamkos placed 6th on Tampa.

EDIT: In 2007-2008, Kessel played with a wide variety of linemates.  His Corsi On was better than all of them except Sturm and Krejci.  In 2009-2010, Stamkos played predominantly with Downie, St. Louis, and Malone.  His Corsi On was worse than all of them except Malone.

Finally, including misses, Kessel took 0.20 shots per minute, at an average distance of 33.8 feet.  On the powerplay, he took 0.17 shots per minute, at an average distance of 32.5 feet.  In comparison, Stamkos took 0.16 shots per minute at even strength, at an average distance of 29.6 feet.  On the powerplay, he took 0.20 shots per minute, at an average distance of 37 feet.

Although Kessel took more shots per minute at even strength, he took them from a little further away from the net.  We would expect his shooting percentage to have been slightly lower.  In fact, it was less than half of Stamkos' shooting percentage.  This major discrepancy is not mostly due to shot distance - it could just be bad luck.  On the powerplay, Stamkos took more shots per minute but they were from further out.  He should have had a lower powerplay shooting percentage but he did not, as his shooting percentage was almost double Kessel's.  Again, this discrepancy cannot be explained by shot distance.

In the end, Stamkos ended up with approximately twice as many goals as Kessel, but it was not because he took more shots, took shots significantly closer to the net, or controlled the play more effectively than Kessel.  That is, it would be hard to argue that 2009-2010 Stamkos was the better player than 2007-2008 Kessel, despite his greater number of goals.  It was a combination of better luck and increased powerplay time.


Kessel 2008-2009 versus Stamkos 2010-2011

In their third seasons, Kessel and Stamkos scored 36 and 45 goals, respectively.  Again, why did Stamkos score more?

He continued to play more, first of all.

Looking at the other statistics, in 2010-2011, Stamkos started in the defensive zone more often than not (49.8% offensive zone starts).  Kessel, in 2008-2009, had more offensive zone starts (50.6%).  It's not a huge advantage for Kessel, but it's still an advantage.  That said, Kessel played with worse teammates.

Stamkos played against the 5th toughest competition whereas Kessel played against the 8th toughest, on their respective teams.  However, their Corsi QoC values are both negative, indicating that they both played against players who were relatively ineffective at keeping the puck out of their defensive zone.

It is in possession that Kessel again shows his class.  He had a Corsi On of 7.23, greater than Stamkos' 4.56.  As well, Kessel significantly outshot the opposition in comparison to his teammates (Corsi QoT of -1.60).  Stamkos slightly underperformed his teammates (Corsi QoT of 4.60).  Kessel had the 2nd best Corsi Rel on Boston; Stamkos had the 7th best.

EDIT: In 2008-2009, Kessel played mostly with Savard and Lucic and had a superior Corsi On.  In 2010-2011, Stamkos continued to play with Downie, St. Louis, and Malone for the most part.  His Corsi On was worse than all of them except St. Louis.

At even strength, Kessel took 0.22 shots per minute at an average distance of 29.8 feet.  On the powerplay, he took 0.19 shots per minute at an average distance of 31.0 feet.  On ther other hand, Stamkos took 0.18 even strength shots per minute at an average distance of 29.5 feet and 0.17 powerplay shots per minute at an average distance of 35.4 feet.

Kessel and Stamkos finished the seasons with nearly identical even strength shooting percentages and thus the same amount of even strength goals (since Stamkos played more minutes).  The powerplay is the difference maker.  Stamkos received over twice as many powerplay minutes as Kessel and had a slightly higher shooting percentage, despite shooting from further out.  He ended up with twice as many powerplay goals as Kessel.  Assuming a linear relationship between powerplay time and goals, Kessel would have scored as many goals as Stamkos if he had been given as much powerplay time.


Conclusion


The difference between the goal outputs of Kessel and Stamkos in their 2nd and 3rd seasons in the NHL has been time on ice and shooting percentages, driven not by shooting distance but rather luck.  Stamkos consistently played more than Kessel, which partially explains his greater number of goals.  More importantly, Stamkos had unexpectedly high shooting percentages - especially on the powerplay - compared to Kessel, who actually shot from closer to the net on the powerplay.

I expect Stamkos' goal-scoring to somewhat drop off in the upcoming season, as his powerplay shooting percentage should decrease.  This will be especially true since teams have no doubt figured out his tendencies on the powerplay.

Ultimately, I think Kessel is a fair comparison to Stamkos.  We traded two first round picks and a second round pick for Kessel.  Stamkos might be worth slightly more, but not by much.


Based on these figures, I do not think that Stamkos is worth anything close to 9 million dollars per year.  In my opinion, his maximum worth is about 7 million.

Whether or not Tampa Bay agrees is a different story.  They will probably want a king's ransom for him.  As a result, I would not pursue Stamkos aggressively.  I just don't think he's worth the type of extreme overpay we would need to give, whether in terms of cap hit or assets in a trade.

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Comments

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Very interesting analysis. I’d offer a more in-depth comment but the tables distracted me.

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by Ubiquitous on Jun 30, 2011 11:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Very interesting dude.

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by TheBurnward on Jun 30, 2011 12:05 PM EDT reply actions  

You call Stamkos’ shooting percentage “Luck” but people do have high shooting percentages when they are more accurate with their shots. I don’t see Stamkos’ shooting % dropping much in his career because of his shot and how he’s good at putting it where the goalie can’t get to it.

by WizardofNaz on Jun 30, 2011 12:25 PM EDT reply actions  

The majority of shooting percentage is luck. His shooting percentage is 12.7, 17.2, and 16.5. That’s well above average but he could be a guy that can sustain a high shooting percentage. I think Gabe found that basically only Alex Tanguay and Ilya Kovalchuk have observably above average shooting skills so maybe Stamkos is the third one.

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by PPP on Jun 30, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

This still blows my mind. Alex Tanguay has never scored 30 goals.

by scrambles the death dealer on Jun 30, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

He clearly only takes good shots.

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by BCapp on Jun 30, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I totally understand your point. But I’m comparing Stamkos to Kessel, not Colton Orr. Of course to be fair to Colton Orr, he did snipe on Brodeur.

Anyways, Kessel has a great shot; he took shots from closer to the net. In isolation, we’d expect him to have a higher shooting percentage.

There are obviously other factors at play that can contribute to the increased shooting percentage. But I think that has more to do with Tampa’s PP set-up (in addition to luck) as opposed to Stamkos being vastly superior to Kessel.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

To me, it’s all about the one-timer. Both guys play the half board position on their off wing. Stamkos takes one-timers from farther out while Kessel likes to move toward the slot before shooting. Stamkos catches goalies out of position, whereas Kessel gives them more time to set up. This explains how Stamkos can have a better shooting % while firing from greater distances.

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by GreatKingRat on Jun 30, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your thesis is still based on what I think is a hugely flawed idea – that Stamkos greater quantity of goals is primarily based on “luck”. There is no evidence to support this. A more likely explanation is that Stamkos has a consistently higher shooting percentage because he is better.

You’ve also misunderstood Corsi QoT. The point of Corsi QoT is to adjust a player’s Corsi to take into account the players he plays with. If a player plays with primarily good players, his Corsi QoT will go down, if he plays primarily with good players, his Corsi QoT will go up. Corsi QoT significantly favours Stamkos in the 2nd season (my guess is that Kessel was on the ice a lot with Chara that year, and Chara is a Corsi monster).

You also assume “a linear relationship between powerplay time and goals” but there is no reason to do so. Bozak played a lot on the powerplay last year, did you see him pick up 17 PP goals? Kessel and Stamkos play different styles of game that benefit them in different situations. Stamkos is great at burying one-timers one the powerplay, while Kessel likes to skate around defenders and try to create his own opportunities. I would argue that one of the reasons Stamkos has a significantly better PP SH% is because he plays a style of game that is more suited to scoring PP goals.

You’ve also ignored Stamkos’ significantly higher assist totals – 44 and 46 vs Kessel’s 18 and 24. You also ignore the fact that Stamkos is a far more physical player, who also handles more defensive responsibility as a centre. In short, Stamkos is a much better player than Kessel.

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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 12:31 PM EDT reply actions  

The centre argument is a good one. That’s certainly a reason why Stamkos is more valuable.

Shooting percentage is mostly luck though. Stamkos could be a guy that can sustain a higher shooting percentage but if he doesn’t then it shouldn’t be a shock.

More PP time = more opportunity to score goals. It’s a big driver of production. PP production is one of Kessel’s weak spots but then again he doesn’t have St. Louis and Lecavalier putting the puck on a tee for him.

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by PPP on Jun 30, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 36 goal year he had Marc Savard, who was arguably one of the top 2-3 passers in the game when he was healthy.

As for the SH% thing, I understand the point, but I think sometimes people try to apply general conclusions to invidual players too frequently. Stamkos has a career SH% of 15.87 over 750 shots. That’s a pretty large sample size that should, I think, accomodate for lucky streaks. The “luck” argument implies, essentially, that Stamkos has been on a lucky streak for 2.5 seasons, which I find difficult to believe. With the number of shots he takes that luck should have balanced out by now.

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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

The luck factor also works in the other direction. For example, Kessel shooting 6% at evens in his second season compared to Stamkos’ 14%.

When Stamkos and Kessel shot from the same distances at evens in 2010-2011 / 2008-2009, they had the same number of even strength goals. I’m not so sure that Stamkos is a vastly superior shooter.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was an outlier year for Kessel. Kessel has a career SH% of 10.35 over 1237 shots. I think odds are that’s a pretty accurate picture of his shooting ability. At any rate, if Stamkos frequently shoots from better locations, that’s likely an indicator that Stamkos is better at getting to prime scoring locations, which I would consider to be another element in his favour.

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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looking at the data from Kessel’s time with the Leafs, he’s actually improved since he got here at taking shots from closer to the net. His shooting percentage didn’t budge. It makes me think that next year could see an improvement in his percentage.

And the percentage argument is only one part. Stamkos got much more ice time than Kessel in the seasons I’m comparing, partially due to Kessel missing 12 games. Extrapolating Kessel’s goal-scoring in his 3rd season to Stamkos’ ice time puts him in the 40 goal range, much closer to Stamkos.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, so in Kessel’s outlier year he scores almost as well as Stamkos during an average year. I think that argument answers itself.

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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

The “experiment” conditions changed after his 3rd season when he was traded. After he became a Leaf, he shot from further out. Possible reasons why: different team, different coach, different linemates, different usage, etc. He improved last season, despite playing with Bozak and Crabb. My guess is that next season he gets to the same distances of his 2008-2009 season and we see an increase in percentage.

At the same time, Stamkos shooting percentage is abnormally high. Who’s to say that his shooting percentage of his first season and the second half of last season (about 12%) is not his true percentage? If he gets another season of 16+%, then I’ll be convinced.

By the way, I don’t mean to say that Stamkos is not a good player. I just value him at 7 million, closer to Kessel’s value.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also Kessel had to recover from an injury last season.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You aren’t appropriately taking into account how YOUNG Stamkos is. His production is remarkable.

There have only been 3 players who have scored 45 goals twice by 20 (him, Carson, and Gretzky), he is 3rd in goals scored by 20, and eight in points by 20.

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by BCapp on Jun 30, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

These kind of comparisons are problematic for me. Stamkos is nowhere close to Gretzky and yet his goal totals at his age seem to indicate he is.

My point is that his goal totals make him look better than he really is. Relative to his linemates, he doesn’t control the play any better. He’s got massive shooting percentages, despite shooting further away from the net than guys like Evander Kane or Kyle Turris. It’s especially evident on the powerplay. That is most likely because of the PP setup and his one-timer (thanks to passes from St. Louis), but that’s going to change very soon. Teams are always developing new approaches and figuring out opposing players’ tendencies. They will close him down on the PP.

Since the year 2000, 1 player (Heatley) has had more than 2 seasons of 16+% shooting with over 200 shots. 1 player.

by stevesmith19 on Jul 1, 2011 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

you know the main thing that separates a player like gretzky and a player like Stamkos? the assist totals

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by JaredFromLondon on Jul 1, 2011 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why? Did Gretzky get lots of assists?

Obviously kidding.

by stevesmith19 on Jul 1, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is a reason though that Stamkos shoots from closer. Thats skill.

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by BCapp on Jun 30, 2011 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That actually is a small sample size but I agree that it’s entirely possible that Stamkos is just an above average shooter.

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by PPP on Jul 4, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not only that, but Stamkos also plays D, backchecks, and cycles the puck much better. Yes, he scores more and does better both on PP and 5-on-5.

by dsciswe on Jun 30, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stamkos’ D is if any thing barely better than Kessel’s
Also he plays with far superior players both defensively and offensively than Kessel

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by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

His D is not better and he doesn’t back check better. Though blocking that shot with his face was awesome.

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by BCapp on Jun 30, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stamkos’ D? Do you even watch the games?

Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.

by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think his “offense-is-better-than-defense D” is better (that is, cycling, passing, all around just keeping the puck on TBL sticks). Without the puck, not sure there’s a huge difference.

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by red army line on Jul 1, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Typo. This sentence should read:
“If a player plays with primarily good players, his Corsi QoT will go down, if he plays primarily with poor players, his Corsi QoT will go up.”

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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really? If that’s the case, I’ll revise the table to look at their Corsi On rankings relative to their linemates.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I always thought that Corsi QoT was simply the weighted average of the Corsi On statistics for a player’s linemates.

My apologies if this is incorrect. I will revise as soon as possible.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are correct. BtN lists no adjusted Corsi metrics aside from Corsi Rel.

QualComp/QualTeam : RATING (relative plus minus) :: Corsi QoC/QoT : Corsi On :: Corsi Rel QoC/QoT : Corsi Rel.

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by red army line on Jul 1, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

In 2007-2008, Kessel’s QoT was 3.01 while Stamkos’ in 2009-2010 was -3.95, meaning Stamkos played with worse teammates. The situation was reversed in 2008-2009 / 2010-2011.

If you look at Kessel’s Corsi On, he was first among forwards with > 30 GP, indicating that he outperformed his teammates (forwards).

The assumption of a linear relationship between PP time and goals is obviously a gross over-simplification. My intention was to illustrate the significance of Kessel’s drastically smaller amount of PP time.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

The title’s provocative which will elicit the knee-jerk reactions but the conclusion is sound:

Stamkos is better just not by the huge margin people assume. Some reasons why are clear, others are a function in part of opportunity (ie more ice-time) and luck (shooting percentage)

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by PPP on Jun 30, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m not particularly fond of the title myself, but my creative juices ran out by the time I came around to thinking of a title.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just meant it’s provocative because people automatically assume that you’re saying that they are equal when what you’re really saying is that the gap isn’t as large as it would appear.

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by PPP on Jul 4, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obvious, Stamkos is a better on the PP. Obvious from watching them. More time does not equal more goals. That is why there is a discrepancy in PP% amongst teams. Stamkos made TB PP better, Kessel did not make Bos PP better. There is an element of luck in SP but Stamkos gets into better scoring positions than Kessel. Stamkos gets into the tougher area’s of the ice to score. That is obvious from watching them.

As for time on ice, that is a coaching decision based not just on goals. If Kessel spent 1685 minutes on ice same as Stamkos, assuming a linear relationship, he would have scored 6 more goals to give him 25, which is less than half Stamkos total of 51. TOI does not explain the discrepancy.

All that is left is Stamkos is a far superior player to Kessel.

by BigM27 on Jun 30, 2011 1:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Kessel’s 2008-2009 season is nearly identical to Stamkos’ 2010-2011 season. I honestly don’t think the distinction between the two is that drastic.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was a year older and that is Kessel’s BEST year.

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by BCapp on Jun 30, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you do something like this again, I’d advise tweaking it so you’re showing Goals/60 minutes rather than goals/minute – the former figure’s used because the latter, unless you’re going to four or five decimal places, doesn’t do a good enough job of differentiating, has much less impact and really suffers from rounding errors. The difference between 0.02 (your figure for Kessel’s rookie season goals/minute) and 0.0152 (the same figure, to four decimal places) is quite distinct. So, for that matter is 0.913 and 1.816 – the goals/60 numbers for Kessel and Stamkos respectively. 0.913 and 1.816 vs. 0.02 and 0.03. Which do you think tells the story better?

by Be26 on Jun 30, 2011 1:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Will do. Thanks for the tip.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

That depends on what story you want to tell.

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by GreatKingRat on Jun 30, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

It depends on whether you want the facts or obfuscation.

by Be26 on Jul 3, 2011 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, the goal per minute figures to 4 decimal places for Kessel’s 3rd season are even better than Stamkos’ 3rd season.

Ultimately, the conclusion isn’t affected severely by the table formatting.

by stevesmith19 on Jul 3, 2011 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

But I will use a per 60 figure next time because it is convention.

by stevesmith19 on Jul 3, 2011 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is there any releationship between SH% and and the QoT.

Would QOT not affect
1. the quality of chances a player has (quality of passes)
2. the coverage from the opposing team?

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by Eterrible on Jun 30, 2011 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

QoT has a lot of noise since a good player (take Ovechkin, for example) will have a great Corsi and hence drive up Backstrom and Knuble’s Corsis, which means you’re counting AO’s contribution thrice. I’m not a fan of QoT metrics.

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by red army line on Jul 1, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

No attention paid to assist or point totals, and how that impacts a players worth.

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by MapleLeafMole on Jun 30, 2011 2:20 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s valid. But to be fair, I think the main reason people really like Stamkos is that he followed up a 51 goal season with a 45 goal season.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s a big part of why he’s significantly better than Kessel, as opposed to slightly better. It shouldn’t be overlooked in a comparison and discussion of contract worth. (Though, I do believe him to be a significantly better goal scorer than Kessel, regardless).

Did like reading this though. Always like a different POV.

Nifty Mittens

by MapleLeafMole on Jun 30, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

For me, it was interesting to take a closer look at the data (and kill some time). And I was more than happy to give Kessel some love.

Either way, I’m excited to wait and see what happens with Kessel/Stamkos.

I think we can both agree that the next few years will have some very exciting hockey. Lot of great young talent in the league.

by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was interesting to take a closer look at the data (and kill some time). And I was more than happy to give Kessel some love.

Well now…can’t disagree with any of that. You do knock Stamkos down a notch, but he’s not a Leaf (yet (kidding)) so fair game.

Nifty Mittens

by MapleLeafMole on Jun 30, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You shouldn’t compare them by season, but by age. Stamkos joined the league a year younger. So you should compare his second season with Kessel’s first and his 3rd season with Kessel’s second.

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by BCapp on Jun 30, 2011 7:27 PM EDT reply actions  

This was posted at 7:28 est lets see how reliable this guy is

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by BCapp on Jun 30, 2011 7:35 PM EDT reply actions  

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Don_t_panic_small SkinnyFish

Picture_1_small JP Nikota

Fg_small birky

Christian-hanson-wrecks-brian-o_1__small Bower Power