Stamkos and Kessel: their 2nd and 3rd NHL Seasons
EDIT: Title modified in case it was too provocative.
There has been a lot of discussion recently about Steven Stamkos and potential offer sheets or trades. At first glance, based on his goal-scoring ability, Stamkos seems to deserve Crosby/Ovechkin dollars. I'm not so convinced. I think he's closer to Phil Kessel levels.
I know it sounds ludicrous but please, join me after the jump and find out how I came to this conclusion.
Below is a table comparing the two players. Kessel's past 2 seasons with Toronto are also shown for completeness (they won't be discussed in-depth in this post but feel free to discuss further in the comments). The numbers were taken from behindthenet.ca and nhl.com.
Kessel's 2007-2008 season will be compared to Stamkos' 2009-2010 while Kessel's 2008-2009 season will be compared to Stamkos' 2010-2011 season.
Kessel 2007-2008 versus Stamkos 2009-2010
Stamkos scored 51 goals in his second season in the NHL. Kessel only scored 19. Why?
Firstly, Stamkos played 1685 minutes while Kessel played 1250 minutes.
Secondly, Stamkos received a great deal of offensive zone starts (54.6%) whereas Kessel started in the defensive zone most of the time (46.8% offensive zone starts). This gave Stamkos an immediate advantage in terms of goal-scoring opportunities. Though he was aided by better quality teammates, Kessel was still at a significant disadvantage.
Personally, I am not a big fan of the quality of competition statistics for comparing players on different teams but it does provide some value. Stamkos and Kessel both faced the 7th toughest competition for their clubs (among forwards playing more than 30 games), based on their Corsi Rel QoC statistics. Nevertheless, it does look like Kessel faced tougher competition overall, with a Corsi QoC value of 0.27 versus -0.12.
In terms of possession, Kessel easily comes out on top with a Corsi On of 6.99, much greater than Stamkos' -4.38. Furthermore, Kessel outshot the opposition more than his teammates (Corsi QoT of 3.01) whereas Stamkos was outshot more than his teammates (Corsi QoT of -3.95). Kessel's Corsi Rel was good for 3rd on Boston (among forwards with more than 30 GP). Stamkos placed 6th on Tampa.
EDIT: In 2007-2008, Kessel played with a wide variety of linemates. His Corsi On was better than all of them except Sturm and Krejci. In 2009-2010, Stamkos played predominantly with Downie, St. Louis, and Malone. His Corsi On was worse than all of them except Malone.
Finally, including misses, Kessel took 0.20 shots per minute, at an average distance of 33.8 feet. On the powerplay, he took 0.17 shots per minute, at an average distance of 32.5 feet. In comparison, Stamkos took 0.16 shots per minute at even strength, at an average distance of 29.6 feet. On the powerplay, he took 0.20 shots per minute, at an average distance of 37 feet.
Although Kessel took more shots per minute at even strength, he took them from a little further away from the net. We would expect his shooting percentage to have been slightly lower. In fact, it was less than half of Stamkos' shooting percentage. This major discrepancy is not mostly due to shot distance - it could just be bad luck. On the powerplay, Stamkos took more shots per minute but they were from further out. He should have had a lower powerplay shooting percentage but he did not, as his shooting percentage was almost double Kessel's. Again, this discrepancy cannot be explained by shot distance.
In the end, Stamkos ended up with approximately twice as many goals as Kessel, but it was not because he took more shots, took shots significantly closer to the net, or controlled the play more effectively than Kessel. That is, it would be hard to argue that 2009-2010 Stamkos was the better player than 2007-2008 Kessel, despite his greater number of goals. It was a combination of better luck and increased powerplay time.
Kessel 2008-2009 versus Stamkos 2010-2011
In their third seasons, Kessel and Stamkos scored 36 and 45 goals, respectively. Again, why did Stamkos score more?
He continued to play more, first of all.
Looking at the other statistics, in 2010-2011, Stamkos started in the defensive zone more often than not (49.8% offensive zone starts). Kessel, in 2008-2009, had more offensive zone starts (50.6%). It's not a huge advantage for Kessel, but it's still an advantage. That said, Kessel played with worse teammates.
Stamkos played against the 5th toughest competition whereas Kessel played against the 8th toughest, on their respective teams. However, their Corsi QoC values are both negative, indicating that they both played against players who were relatively ineffective at keeping the puck out of their defensive zone.
It is in possession that Kessel again shows his class. He had a Corsi On of 7.23, greater than Stamkos' 4.56. As well, Kessel significantly outshot the opposition in comparison to his teammates (Corsi QoT of -1.60). Stamkos slightly underperformed his teammates (Corsi QoT of 4.60). Kessel had the 2nd best Corsi Rel on Boston; Stamkos had the 7th best.
EDIT: In 2008-2009, Kessel played mostly with Savard and Lucic and had a superior Corsi On. In 2010-2011, Stamkos continued to play with Downie, St. Louis, and Malone for the most part. His Corsi On was worse than all of them except St. Louis.
At even strength, Kessel took 0.22 shots per minute at an average distance of 29.8 feet. On the powerplay, he took 0.19 shots per minute at an average distance of 31.0 feet. On ther other hand, Stamkos took 0.18 even strength shots per minute at an average distance of 29.5 feet and 0.17 powerplay shots per minute at an average distance of 35.4 feet.
Kessel and Stamkos finished the seasons with nearly identical even strength shooting percentages and thus the same amount of even strength goals (since Stamkos played more minutes). The powerplay is the difference maker. Stamkos received over twice as many powerplay minutes as Kessel and had a slightly higher shooting percentage, despite shooting from further out. He ended up with twice as many powerplay goals as Kessel. Assuming a linear relationship between powerplay time and goals, Kessel would have scored as many goals as Stamkos if he had been given as much powerplay time.
Conclusion
The difference between the goal outputs of Kessel and Stamkos in their 2nd and 3rd seasons in the NHL has been time on ice and shooting percentages, driven not by shooting distance but rather luck. Stamkos consistently played more than Kessel, which partially explains his greater number of goals. More importantly, Stamkos had unexpectedly high shooting percentages - especially on the powerplay - compared to Kessel, who actually shot from closer to the net on the powerplay.
I expect Stamkos' goal-scoring to somewhat drop off in the upcoming season, as his powerplay shooting percentage should decrease. This will be especially true since teams have no doubt figured out his tendencies on the powerplay.
Ultimately, I think Kessel is a fair comparison to Stamkos. We traded two first round picks and a second round pick for Kessel. Stamkos might be worth slightly more, but not by much.
Based on these figures, I do not think that Stamkos is worth anything close to 9 million dollars per year. In my opinion, his maximum worth is about 7 million.
Whether or not Tampa Bay agrees is a different story. They will probably want a king's ransom for him. As a result, I would not pursue Stamkos aggressively. I just don't think he's worth the type of extreme overpay we would need to give, whether in terms of cap hit or assets in a trade.
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You call Stamkos’ shooting percentage “Luck” but people do have high shooting percentages when they are more accurate with their shots. I don’t see Stamkos’ shooting % dropping much in his career because of his shot and how he’s good at putting it where the goalie can’t get to it.
The majority of shooting percentage is luck. His shooting percentage is 12.7, 17.2, and 16.5. That’s well above average but he could be a guy that can sustain a high shooting percentage. I think Gabe found that basically only Alex Tanguay and Ilya Kovalchuk have observably above average shooting skills so maybe Stamkos is the third one.
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This still blows my mind. Alex Tanguay has never scored 30 goals.
by scrambles the death dealer on Jun 30, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally understand your point. But I’m comparing Stamkos to Kessel, not Colton Orr. Of course to be fair to Colton Orr, he did snipe on Brodeur.
Anyways, Kessel has a great shot; he took shots from closer to the net. In isolation, we’d expect him to have a higher shooting percentage.
There are obviously other factors at play that can contribute to the increased shooting percentage. But I think that has more to do with Tampa’s PP set-up (in addition to luck) as opposed to Stamkos being vastly superior to Kessel.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
To me, it’s all about the one-timer. Both guys play the half board position on their off wing. Stamkos takes one-timers from farther out while Kessel likes to move toward the slot before shooting. Stamkos catches goalies out of position, whereas Kessel gives them more time to set up. This explains how Stamkos can have a better shooting % while firing from greater distances.
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by GreatKingRat on Jun 30, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Your thesis is still based on what I think is a hugely flawed idea – that Stamkos greater quantity of goals is primarily based on “luck”. There is no evidence to support this. A more likely explanation is that Stamkos has a consistently higher shooting percentage because he is better.
You’ve also misunderstood Corsi QoT. The point of Corsi QoT is to adjust a player’s Corsi to take into account the players he plays with. If a player plays with primarily good players, his Corsi QoT will go down, if he plays primarily with good players, his Corsi QoT will go up. Corsi QoT significantly favours Stamkos in the 2nd season (my guess is that Kessel was on the ice a lot with Chara that year, and Chara is a Corsi monster).
You also assume “a linear relationship between powerplay time and goals” but there is no reason to do so. Bozak played a lot on the powerplay last year, did you see him pick up 17 PP goals? Kessel and Stamkos play different styles of game that benefit them in different situations. Stamkos is great at burying one-timers one the powerplay, while Kessel likes to skate around defenders and try to create his own opportunities. I would argue that one of the reasons Stamkos has a significantly better PP SH% is because he plays a style of game that is more suited to scoring PP goals.
You’ve also ignored Stamkos’ significantly higher assist totals – 44 and 46 vs Kessel’s 18 and 24. You also ignore the fact that Stamkos is a far more physical player, who also handles more defensive responsibility as a centre. In short, Stamkos is a much better player than Kessel.
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The centre argument is a good one. That’s certainly a reason why Stamkos is more valuable.
Shooting percentage is mostly luck though. Stamkos could be a guy that can sustain a higher shooting percentage but if he doesn’t then it shouldn’t be a shock.
More PP time = more opportunity to score goals. It’s a big driver of production. PP production is one of Kessel’s weak spots but then again he doesn’t have St. Louis and Lecavalier putting the puck on a tee for him.
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The 36 goal year he had Marc Savard, who was arguably one of the top 2-3 passers in the game when he was healthy.
As for the SH% thing, I understand the point, but I think sometimes people try to apply general conclusions to invidual players too frequently. Stamkos has a career SH% of 15.87 over 750 shots. That’s a pretty large sample size that should, I think, accomodate for lucky streaks. The “luck” argument implies, essentially, that Stamkos has been on a lucky streak for 2.5 seasons, which I find difficult to believe. With the number of shots he takes that luck should have balanced out by now.
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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The luck factor also works in the other direction. For example, Kessel shooting 6% at evens in his second season compared to Stamkos’ 14%.
When Stamkos and Kessel shot from the same distances at evens in 2010-2011 / 2008-2009, they had the same number of even strength goals. I’m not so sure that Stamkos is a vastly superior shooter.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That was an outlier year for Kessel. Kessel has a career SH% of 10.35 over 1237 shots. I think odds are that’s a pretty accurate picture of his shooting ability. At any rate, if Stamkos frequently shoots from better locations, that’s likely an indicator that Stamkos is better at getting to prime scoring locations, which I would consider to be another element in his favour.
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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking at the data from Kessel’s time with the Leafs, he’s actually improved since he got here at taking shots from closer to the net. His shooting percentage didn’t budge. It makes me think that next year could see an improvement in his percentage.
And the percentage argument is only one part. Stamkos got much more ice time than Kessel in the seasons I’m comparing, partially due to Kessel missing 12 games. Extrapolating Kessel’s goal-scoring in his 3rd season to Stamkos’ ice time puts him in the 40 goal range, much closer to Stamkos.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, so in Kessel’s outlier year he scores almost as well as Stamkos during an average year. I think that argument answers itself.
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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The “experiment” conditions changed after his 3rd season when he was traded. After he became a Leaf, he shot from further out. Possible reasons why: different team, different coach, different linemates, different usage, etc. He improved last season, despite playing with Bozak and Crabb. My guess is that next season he gets to the same distances of his 2008-2009 season and we see an increase in percentage.
At the same time, Stamkos shooting percentage is abnormally high. Who’s to say that his shooting percentage of his first season and the second half of last season (about 12%) is not his true percentage? If he gets another season of 16+%, then I’ll be convinced.
By the way, I don’t mean to say that Stamkos is not a good player. I just value him at 7 million, closer to Kessel’s value.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Also Kessel had to recover from an injury last season.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
You aren’t appropriately taking into account how YOUNG Stamkos is. His production is remarkable.
There have only been 3 players who have scored 45 goals twice by 20 (him, Carson, and Gretzky), he is 3rd in goals scored by 20, and eight in points by 20.
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These kind of comparisons are problematic for me. Stamkos is nowhere close to Gretzky and yet his goal totals at his age seem to indicate he is.
My point is that his goal totals make him look better than he really is. Relative to his linemates, he doesn’t control the play any better. He’s got massive shooting percentages, despite shooting further away from the net than guys like Evander Kane or Kyle Turris. It’s especially evident on the powerplay. That is most likely because of the PP setup and his one-timer (thanks to passes from St. Louis), but that’s going to change very soon. Teams are always developing new approaches and figuring out opposing players’ tendencies. They will close him down on the PP.
Since the year 2000, 1 player (Heatley) has had more than 2 seasons of 16+% shooting with over 200 shots. 1 player.
you know the main thing that separates a player like gretzky and a player like Stamkos? the assist totals
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by JaredFromLondon on Jul 1, 2011 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
That actually is a small sample size but I agree that it’s entirely possible that Stamkos is just an above average shooter.
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Not only that, but Stamkos also plays D, backchecks, and cycles the puck much better. Yes, he scores more and does better both on PP and 5-on-5.
Stamkos’ D is if any thing barely better than Kessel’s
Also he plays with far superior players both defensively and offensively than Kessel
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by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Stamkos’ D? Do you even watch the games?
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I think his “offense-is-better-than-defense D” is better (that is, cycling, passing, all around just keeping the puck on TBL sticks). Without the puck, not sure there’s a huge difference.
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by red army line on Jul 1, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Typo. This sentence should read:
“If a player plays with primarily good players, his Corsi QoT will go down, if he plays primarily with poor players, his Corsi QoT will go up.”
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by Draglikepull on Jun 30, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? If that’s the case, I’ll revise the table to look at their Corsi On rankings relative to their linemates.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I always thought that Corsi QoT was simply the weighted average of the Corsi On statistics for a player’s linemates.
My apologies if this is incorrect. I will revise as soon as possible.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You are correct. BtN lists no adjusted Corsi metrics aside from Corsi Rel.
QualComp/QualTeam : RATING (relative plus minus) :: Corsi QoC/QoT : Corsi On :: Corsi Rel QoC/QoT : Corsi Rel.
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by red army line on Jul 1, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
In 2007-2008, Kessel’s QoT was 3.01 while Stamkos’ in 2009-2010 was -3.95, meaning Stamkos played with worse teammates. The situation was reversed in 2008-2009 / 2010-2011.
If you look at Kessel’s Corsi On, he was first among forwards with > 30 GP, indicating that he outperformed his teammates (forwards).
The assumption of a linear relationship between PP time and goals is obviously a gross over-simplification. My intention was to illustrate the significance of Kessel’s drastically smaller amount of PP time.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The title’s provocative which will elicit the knee-jerk reactions but the conclusion is sound:
Stamkos is better just not by the huge margin people assume. Some reasons why are clear, others are a function in part of opportunity (ie more ice-time) and luck (shooting percentage)
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I’m not particularly fond of the title myself, but my creative juices ran out by the time I came around to thinking of a title.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I just meant it’s provocative because people automatically assume that you’re saying that they are equal when what you’re really saying is that the gap isn’t as large as it would appear.
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Obvious, Stamkos is a better on the PP. Obvious from watching them. More time does not equal more goals. That is why there is a discrepancy in PP% amongst teams. Stamkos made TB PP better, Kessel did not make Bos PP better. There is an element of luck in SP but Stamkos gets into better scoring positions than Kessel. Stamkos gets into the tougher area’s of the ice to score. That is obvious from watching them.
As for time on ice, that is a coaching decision based not just on goals. If Kessel spent 1685 minutes on ice same as Stamkos, assuming a linear relationship, he would have scored 6 more goals to give him 25, which is less than half Stamkos total of 51. TOI does not explain the discrepancy.
All that is left is Stamkos is a far superior player to Kessel.
Kessel’s 2008-2009 season is nearly identical to Stamkos’ 2010-2011 season. I honestly don’t think the distinction between the two is that drastic.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
If you do something like this again, I’d advise tweaking it so you’re showing Goals/60 minutes rather than goals/minute – the former figure’s used because the latter, unless you’re going to four or five decimal places, doesn’t do a good enough job of differentiating, has much less impact and really suffers from rounding errors. The difference between 0.02 (your figure for Kessel’s rookie season goals/minute) and 0.0152 (the same figure, to four decimal places) is quite distinct. So, for that matter is 0.913 and 1.816 – the goals/60 numbers for Kessel and Stamkos respectively. 0.913 and 1.816 vs. 0.02 and 0.03. Which do you think tells the story better?
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by GreatKingRat on Jun 30, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there any releationship between SH% and and the QoT.
Would QOT not affect
1. the quality of chances a player has (quality of passes)
2. the coverage from the opposing team?
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QoT has a lot of noise since a good player (take Ovechkin, for example) will have a great Corsi and hence drive up Backstrom and Knuble’s Corsis, which means you’re counting AO’s contribution thrice. I’m not a fan of QoT metrics.
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by red army line on Jul 1, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s valid. But to be fair, I think the main reason people really like Stamkos is that he followed up a 51 goal season with a 45 goal season.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s a big part of why he’s significantly better than Kessel, as opposed to slightly better. It shouldn’t be overlooked in a comparison and discussion of contract worth. (Though, I do believe him to be a significantly better goal scorer than Kessel, regardless).
Did like reading this though. Always like a different POV.
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by MapleLeafMole on Jun 30, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
For me, it was interesting to take a closer look at the data (and kill some time). And I was more than happy to give Kessel some love.
Either way, I’m excited to wait and see what happens with Kessel/Stamkos.
I think we can both agree that the next few years will have some very exciting hockey. Lot of great young talent in the league.
by stevesmith19 on Jun 30, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It was interesting to take a closer look at the data (and kill some time). And I was more than happy to give Kessel some love.
Well now…can’t disagree with any of that. You do knock Stamkos down a notch, but he’s not a Leaf (yet (kidding)) so fair game.
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by MapleLeafMole on Jun 30, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
This was posted at 7:28 est lets see how reliable this guy is
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