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An Expanded Look At "First Liners"

Jonathan Willis' recent post on what kind of point totals we should expect out of first liners has generated a lot of discussion.  Willis asserts that 50-60 points is an average amount for a first liner to score, which contradicts the expectation that many people seem to have that a first liner is a point-per-game player.  One frequent criticism of Willis' piece is that no one really cares how many points a first-liner on a bad team scores, since no one wants their GM to build a bad team (except for the small number of teams tanking for lottery picks). 

I think that's a fair point, and I think there are some other things worth examining too.  For one, what is the breakdown like between a team's top-scoring forward and its 2nd and 3rd scoring forwards?  Pittsburgh's top three scorers in recent years have been Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Chris Kunitz, and while they may all be "first liners" in one sense, there's a significant gap in talent between Kunitz and the other two that's worth taking note of.  Another question I had was whether the results look any different if you look at seasons prior to the current one?  This year saw some of the league's top scorers in recent years miss significant time due to injuries (Crosby, Malkin, Ryan Getzlaf, Pavel Datsyuk) while others had years that were well below what they've been capable of achieving in the past (Alexander Ovechkin, Niklas Backstrom, Joe Thornton, Dany Heatley).  Follow me beyond the jump to see how those questions play out.

Star-divide

Before we get to the actual data, I'll explain what data I collected and what I was looking for in that data.  I went through all of the playoff teams from the past 5 seasons and noted how many points their top three scoring forwards had, dividing them into 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scorer to take account of the differences between them.  This doesn't strictly speaking give you a team's "first line" since those players don't always play together (Crosby and Malkin often play apart, and the Sedins rarely play with Ryan Kesler at even strength, for example), but I think it gives us a pretty good idea.  I've then averaged the totals for each playoff team each season to give us an idea of what an average "playoff" first line looked like that year.

 

Year 1st Scorer 2nd Scorer 3rd Scorer Top Line
2010-11 74.125 64 57.25 195.375
2009-10 78.875 67.875 58.75 205.5
2008-09 85.1875 72.8125 60.25 218.25
2007-08 85.3125 67.9375 57.3125 210.5625
2006-07 89.625 76.375 65.3125 231.3125
Average 82.625 69.8 59.775 212.2

 

And here's a chart showing the same information, because pictures are fun:

23m5x5g_medium

A couple of things are clear from this data.  The most obvious to me is that this year the totals are well below what they've been in other recent years - every single category I measured had a lower total this year than in any of the previous 4 seasons.  This year's average top line had nearly 17 points less than the 5-year average (a little over 5 points per player), and a startling 36 points less than the highest year recorded here, an average of twelve points per top line player.  While the typical 3rd forward has scored at roughly the same pace over each of the past 5 seasons, the 1st and 2nd forwards have had their totals fall considerably. 

I think the totals for years other than this past season actually mesh much more with what people think of a "first line" forward being.  In 3 of the past 5 seasons, the top regular season scorer on each playoff team has averaged over 85 points (more than a point per game) while the average 2nd highest scorer in these 5 seasons scores right around 70 points (a sizeable drop, but still close to a point per game).  There is then another pretty big drop down to the 3rd leading scorer, who typically scores closer to 60 points.  This contradicts what Willis found, since it's really only the "worst" of the top line scorers who average 60 points per year - the top two players average significantly more.

So that's how well the average playoff first line scores.  Using the playoffs as a cut-off point makes sense for this discussion because regular season success doesn't contribute directly to the playoffs, aside from the initial act of qualifying.  Obviously scoring more points in the regular season doesn't win you any games once the post-season comes around, but still, I thought it might be interesting to examine the top 3 regular season scorers from each of these playoff teams by sub-dividing them into which round of the playoffs they made it to.  So I've divided them into teams that lost in the first round, teams that lost in the second round, teams that lost in the conference finals, and teams that made it to the Stanley Cup finals.  Because the sample size is so small by the point you reach the SCF, it didn't make much sense to divide them into winners or losers at that point.  Here are the results:

 

Round 1st Scorer 2nd Scorer 3rd Scorer Top Line
1st 79.175 66.25 58.95 204.375
2nd 84.5 69.9 58.35 212.75
Conference Finals 82.5 74.6 62.9 220
Cup Finals 92.8 79 62.8 234.6

 

And again in chart format because what kind of monster doesn't enjoy charts?

Nqnsqq_medium

It turns out that regular season scoring does have some correlation with playoff success.  The average number of points that each first line scores based on which round it loses in goes up by a fairly notable margin with each successive round.  The average team that makes the Stanley Cup finals scores on average 10 points more per first liner player than teams that lose in the first round.  As before, the difference is most notable between top scorers - where the gap is roughly 14 points - and 2nd leading scorers - where the gap is 13 points.  The gap between 3rd leading scorers is much smaller, at just 4 points.

So there you have it.  It seems as though there is a pretty clear distinction between the top 3 scorers on playoff teams over the past 5 seasons.  When people say they want their team to have more first liners, I think what they mean is that they want more players who fit the mould of the 1st and 2nd best scorers on the playoff teams I examined, who average 83 and 70 points respectively.  Having those players does, in aggregate, seem to bear a strong relationship to winning in the playoffs, which is what most of us what our GMs to build our teams to do.

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Good post, I enjoyed reading it.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 19, 2011 11:18 PM EDT reply actions  

fantastic. I was thinking about something similar recently – how Sundin ws good for 70-80 pts/season, and how badly the Leafs could use a player like that again.

Nifty Mittens

by MapleLeafMole on Jul 20, 2011 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Good post

though it made me realise how far the leafs are

Where in the world is Carmen San Diego?!!!

by SPERO on Jul 20, 2011 2:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank you

As the person who was the center of the shitstorm discussion about first liners, I have to say this is very nice.

Something I would really like to see (but am too lazy to do) would be along the lines of Ben Schnell’s posts on Win Thresholds. Suppose you had an average goalie (in terms of save percentage) and average defense (in terms of shots allowed). Using Ben’s analysis, you could figure out how many goals you would need to score in order to get into the playoffs. At that point, you could figure out what percentage of goals are scored by the 1st line on playoff teams. Using this percentage, you could figure out how many goals you would need your first line to score in order to make the playoffs.

I suppose you should be able to back out how many points you should expect from each 1st liner, but at the very least you would be able to tell if your team has a “legitimate” 1st line or not.

by Lemonstyx on Jul 20, 2011 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

There is a pictures somewhere

Of the pythagorean regression of GF vs GA. I am sure someone will post it. (I don’t know where it is on these silly intertubes).

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 20, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m (passingly) familiar with the concept of Pythagrean regression to the mean, but I’m not sure how that applies here. (I assume the confusion is on my end.)

by Lemonstyx on Jul 20, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

look

up pythagenpuck or go to alan ryder’s site hockeyanalytics.com if you want more detail on pythagorean win% expectations and GF vs. GA.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a .jpg of that chart…not sure how to post here

Nifty Mittens

by MapleLeafMole on Jul 20, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Found it for ya

Its a purrty picture.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 20, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

By my estimation

Goals:

LCK
25-15-35=75 goals
MGK
20-25-25=70 goals
Kadri-Bozak-Armstrong
40 goals (less than 15 goals each)
4th line
15 goals

Forwards=195 goals

D
Phaneuf, Liles, Frnason =25 Goals (they can all hit double digits)
Schenn, Gunnar = 15 Goals
Komi/Aulie=5 goals

Defenseman=45 goals

GF = 240 goals
Subtract 5% for bad luck 228 GF call it 230.

Our GA for the last 3 years has been 249, 263, 286

Go Reimer Go!

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 20, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

you should be getting

around 65% of your goals from your top 6… looking at your estimates, you’ve got 145 from the top 6, and 55 from the bottom 6… plus another 45 from the D… that’s 60%… it’s a bit low.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've projected the team

to produce about 630 points and 235 goals this year… based on predicted usage this upcoming season at 5v5 and on the PP, and their production rates last year on a per 60 minute basis.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

So siimilar number? Anywho off for dinner, cheers.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 20, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve got 250 if no significant injuries arise, but I’m more inclined to say 235 as well. 230-250 is the range, no more than this is really possible lol.
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2011/6/29/2249267/using-win-threshold-to-anticipate-next-season-part-ii

by Ben Schnell on Jul 24, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just a ball park based on what I think each guy can do.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 20, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was running numbers

based on what they did last year… so it’s pretty much based one exactly what they did last year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cool

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 20, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW

Near the end of the year we had 32 SA/GP or so (this is recollection so it may have been 33).

If our goaltending can give us 0.910 as a tandem we’ll have the following goals against
32*82=2624
2624*(1-0.915)= 223

With 0.910 236 GA

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 20, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

predicting

.912 for Reimer, .905 for Gustavsson (bit low for Reimer or a bit high for Gustavsson so it may even out).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

you’re reaching a bit on the goals from defensemen. Subtract another 5% as well for injuries. so 230 in a perfect world, minus 10% for injuries and bad luck….that’s 207 goals.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Jul 21, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

basically, someone is going to have to have a big year for the Leafs

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Jul 21, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Liles has 0.13 GPG over his career, Franson has 0.1, and Phaneuf has 0.18. BUT Phaneuf’s goal scoring has obviously decreased so we’ll average his last two years and call him 0.136.

So if they each pull 82 games (we’ll drop injuries off after) they’ll get:
Liles=11
Franson=8
Phaneuf=11

For a total of 30. I predicted they would have 25 (in other words below their total average career production (except for Phaneuf who I am not predicting career production))

Schenn’s GPG is 0.05 and Gunnar’s is 0.06
So thats 4 and 5 goals. I honestly thought Gunnar had more goals. I was incorrect on that. Considering how young they are I feel its safe to hope for previous career production out of them because I would hope for some development. So I’ll call them for 10 (not 15).

Komisarek has a 0.03 and Aulie (in just 40 games) has a 0.05. Lets assume they play 82 games between them and they produce at 0.03 that equals 2 goals. So drop another 3 G.

That leaves our D at 25+10+2=37

195+37=232

If we have to subtract 10% for injuries (ie our callups can’t produce much) we are in a lot of trouble.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 21, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Liles has scored 6 goals in 3 of his last 4 seasons. His first two seasons were those directly following the lockout, where scoring was way up due to the high number of penalties. That effect has since came back to normal numbers. Assuming he’s a double digit goal scorer is folly. Six goals from Liles seems reasonable.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Jul 21, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Assuming Franson can’t develop either is folly. I also didn’t assume he could get 11. I added those 3 numbers up and then took off 5. So it would be more like 9, 7, 9.

I am drinking the Kule-aid!
Certified Kule lover!

by BCapp on Jul 21, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not unreasonable

to predict 45 goals from the D.

Boston had 38 from their D last year and they were pretty far from offensively inclined.

Toronto had 26, but considering Phaneuf led the team with 8 and the next highest was Luke Schenn at 5… that’s pretty ridiculous.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

San Jose

only had 27… similar problems… which is why they want to replace what they lost in Rob Blake.

Detroit had 31 from their top 3 D men alone… 41 in total.
Vancouver had 42.

Ok maybe 45 is too much… we’ll say 35?

That’d be more reasonable.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

so

195 + 35 = 230 goals.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I recall Marian Hossa’s agent saying the magic number was 143 goals for provided by the top 6 forwards – to get into the playoffs. This was just before signing with the B-Hawks

Nifty Mittens

by MapleLeafMole on Jul 20, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

That number seems too high. Boston had a fair amount less than that in their top 6 this year, and they had one of the better offenses in the league.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 20, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could be…this was a few seasons ago, and I think the NHL seems to be trending downwards again in goal scoring.

I am also going on pure recollection. Not sure if it was the threshold for playoff team or top 4 team. I could try and track it down…

Nifty Mittens

by MapleLeafMole on Jul 20, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting. The Leafs got 112 out of the KGM line and Kessel. If those guys could repeat their performance, then 31 goals out of Kessel’s linemates would hit that number.

Of course, the real issue for the Leafs has been keeping the puck out of the net. Here’s hoping Optimus Reim is for real!

by Lemonstyx on Jul 20, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here’s the quote:

Winter, with help from mathematical advisers, has determined exactly how many points a contending team needs from its top-six forward group and top-four defencemen, and the save percentage required from a goalie to become a 100-point team. For example, if all thresholds are met from the defence and goalies, a team that gets at least 143 goals from its top six forwards will record 100 points. According to Winter, that number has stayed true every year since the lockout. He has calculations like that for every position.

and here’s the link where I found it.

by Lemonstyx on Jul 20, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Love to know the number for D and goalies. That quote always stuck with me.

Thanks for the link

Nifty Mittens

by MapleLeafMole on Jul 20, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's an interesting quote

but only in the sense that it’s set up as a minimum… which is weird, because it’d change if your D was better.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahh, for a 100-point team. That makes more sense.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 20, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

it was 143 to be a “contender”… in their estimate.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

WOW A SHOUTOUT! IM FAMOUS

by Ben Schnell on Jul 24, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here's the pythagenpuck relationship

described in win probabilities… by Ryder.

To summarize the key relationship:

Pr(Win) =GF^E/ (GF^E + GA^E)
where
E = (GFg + GAg)^P

P is 0.458 post lockout (he calculated it as of 2004, so it may have changed, but it’s still useful as a guideline.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 5:45 PM EDT reply actions  

So for a team that scores 143 goals

to get 100 points (as a minimum) then it has to allow approximately 128 goals or less.

That would give it 45 wins… and a 45-27-10 record results in 100 points.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

woops

143 goals for the top line… changes things doesn’t it?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok let's try that again

using Tom Awad’s teirs of players (1st through 4th) then 1st liners and 2nd liners should provide approximately 65% of your scoring… 36% from the top tier, and 29% from the 2nd tier… so that’s 220 goals as a team… which means 201 goals against for that 45-27-10 record I mentioned previously.

201 goals against is 2.45 GAA, and a team sv% of roughly .925 if they allow a rough league average 2500 shots and 7 EN goals… so yeah… NOT likely from the Leafs anytime soon.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:52 PM EDT reply actions  

realistically

for the Leafs to compete we need to drastically lower our shots against, and improve our goaltending… we can get to the playoffs by being even in the gf and ga department, but we won’t win anything that way.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh and to break down goals by line

we’ve got

L1: 80
L2: 64
L3: 48
L4: 26

roughly.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 20, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

what about goals from d-men?

by Big Griff on Jul 20, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

slightly confused

is this suggesting that on good teams (ones that make it to the finals) their top players actually do step up their production?

If that’s the case, that’s very interesting. Obviously you’d assume the best teams have very good top line players. but they’re also facing top-level competition now too

Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs

by pevans on Jul 21, 2011 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I was only referring to regular season production. What I found is that teams that do well in the playoffs tend to have notably higher scoring top lines during the regular season than teams that lose earlier in the playoffs. ie. Regular season performance from your top line does have some predictive value for post-season success.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 21, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

put another way

is that chart really showing that when we look in the rear view mirror at teams that make the finals, it turns out they have higher-scoring “top lines” than teams that don’t make the finals, get bounced earlier or even miss the playoffs

I guess that’s intuitive but it’s interesting to see in numbers form.

Maybe defence doesn’t win championships after all :)

Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs

by pevans on Jul 21, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

unless

you’re talking about Boston and winning the Stanley Cup… they didn’t have a single player score over 65 points this year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lucic

and Krejci both had 62 points… Bergeron had 57, and Horton had 53.

That isn’t what we should be worrying about apparently?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMHO

defense is WAY more important than Offense to playoff success.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you look at the data I provided above, it seems pretty clear that offense tends to be important. The Bruins this year were an outlier because they got possibly the best season of goaltending the NHL has ever had.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 23, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's important

but D is more important.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you think about the best teams in the NHL

they’re amongst the best because of their D… not their offense.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

teams that do well in the playoffs

this year with lower scoring top lines?

Nashville, Boston, San Jose… Detroit?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Vancouver

actually had one line’s worth of solid offense… after that it wasn’t their offense winning them many games.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you look

at Cup Winners… they tend to be very good defensively in the playoffs… good goaltending and solid D tends to trump high scoring teams.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 23, 2011 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not just about “offence”, it’s about elite offensive talent at the top end of the lineup. The teams that have made the Stanley Cup finals in recent years have typically had extremely good top lines – Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, Malkin, Richards, Carter, Sedins, Kesler, Kane, Toews, Hossa, etc. Boston is an outlier.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 24, 2011 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

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