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Dr. Burkelove (or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Hate Free Agents)

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With all the dust settling after the free-agent frenzy, there have been some debates as to what the best strategy is come July 1. Specifically, some have criticized the Leafs generally and Brian Burke specifically for not trying hard enough to recruit top-end free agents (in particular, Brad Richards). 

Now, as some of you may know, I actually have a PhD in psychology. While that doesn't make me a particular worthwhile member of society, it does make me interested in the psychological factors that contribute to success in hockey, such as working memory span, or, more relevantly, incentives.

It has often been discussed as well that players who are ready to hit free agency may try extra hard that last year, so as to land big $$$. In other words, in the year before hitting free agency, players have a huge incentive to perform well. After they sign a big contract, however, the incentive disappears. What this means, of course, is that free agents may not be worth in the future what they were in the past. 

Now while this issue has been discussed a lot, I could think of no place where the numbers have been crunched. So, I decided to have a look at the numbers myself to see exactly how free agents perform before and after signing a big contract. 

Star-divide

Now the first thing I realized when trying to do this is that there are very few good records of past free agents (at least, none that are compiled in one place). So, I scraped together a list of what I considered top-end (or highly publicized) free-agents since 2007. For the full list, you can see the spreadsheet here. I tried to restrict the list wherever possible using a few criteron. 1) They had to be UFAs, and have signed after (or close to July 1). In a few cases, I took people who signed before hitting the market (i.e., they resigned with the team they played with, or the team that owned their rights), but more on that later. 2) they had to have played at least 2 years without UFA prior to signing. In a few cases (Brier, Hossa) they were only on 1-year contracts, only because the previous 2 years had been UFA seasons, thereby making a fair comparison. and 3) They were players of some significance (that is, I knew who they were). As a caveat, you should know that this list is by no means complete or unbiased, so bear that in mind. 

OK, let's look at a few numbers:

PPG -2 Years

PPG -1 Year

PPG +1 Year

% Change Before

% Change Before - After

0.809280199

0.794163382

0.715078023

0%

-10%

What the above table shows you is the PPG obtained in the 2 years prior to signing a contract, as well as the year immediately following. Interestingly, in the years immediately prior to hitting UFA, the PPG average doesn't change much at all. That is, contrary to popular belief, players don't put on a really good year before hitting the market. At least, no more so than they did the 2 years before. If there is an incentive to performing well before becoming a UFA, this lasts for more than a single year.

More importantly, there is a significant and real decrease in production immediately after signing those big contracts. Performance decreases from about .8 PPG to almost .7 PPG, a decrease of 10%. In other words, in a 70-game season, players are going to score only about 63 points after signing a big contract, whereas they were scoring almost 70 points in the two seasons previous. 

Now some of you are probably immediately thinking BUT THIS IS JUST REGRESSION TO THE MEAN! However, if the year immediately prior to signing the contract was a large outlier, we'd expect the values to be much lower 2 years before, whereas it's almost exactly the same. Similarly, this is likely no just the result of aging players getting worse, as we'd expect similar decreases in performance from years -2 to -1. 

Nope, what these numbers show is that when you sign an UFA, you're almost guaranteed to get a worse player than the one that you thought you were signing. 

But what about different UFAs? Are there differences between the types of players who sign long-term contracts for 15 versus those that sign short deals for a year or two? 

PPG -2 Years

PPG -1 Year

PPG +1 Year

% Change Before

% Change Before - After

<= 3 Years

0.86

0.71

0.66

-17%

-7%

>= 4 Years

0.78

0.84

0.75

7%

-11%

To examine this question, I split up the contracts by those who had signed for more than or less than 4 years. What you can see is that those players who sign shorter contracts tended to have a bad year immediately prior to signing. This makes sense, as their market value would have been much lower, resulting in a shorter (and therefore, less lucrative) contract. Surprisingly though, rather then the regression to the mean effect, these players continued to decrease by 7% after their UFA  year. A lot of this is no doubt the result of aging veterans signing 1 or 2 year deals, because if I look at only those players who sign 3 year deals, they stay roughly steady between the -1 and +1 years. In other words, it's worth gambling on a young, mediocre player for a few years, but if he's old, take a pass. 

On the other hand, those big-names who are signing all those long-term deals (Campbell, Kovalchuk, etc.) look like the prize pig in the year before signing those deals, as their point production increases on average about 7% in the year immediately before hitting UFA. However, while wily GMs think they're getting a great deal by locking them up for eternity (remember, you're here forever), those players show a significant drop in performance the year immediately after signing that long-term contract. Again, some of this might be regression to the mean, but notice how their performance drops off so much more so than those who sign shorter deals. Chances are, if a player looks too good to be true, he probably is. Let the nabobs snag him for a decade if they want, chances are they'll come to regret it sooner rather than later. 

This is where Burke's strategy this off-season is brilliant. Rather than burdening the team for a decade with a player who no longer has motivation to play, he signs guys to short contracts who are continually looking to score that next big pay-day, or who are looking for more than just money when singing. (Christian Jerkoff Ehrhoff, I'm looking in your direction).  

One other thing I wanted to look at was the actual value of hitting the UFA market. What about those guys who lock up with their current teams before getting to UFA, presumably because they like where they are, and are interested in taking a pay-cut to stay in the right place. Now I should point out that as far as I can tell, this is a fairly recent phenomenon (or guys used to get locked up long before UFA, such that old websites don't even list them as such). 

PPG -2 Years

PPG -1 Year

PPG +1 Year

% Change Before

% Change Before - After

Market

0.810

0.783

0.678

-3%

-13%

Pre-Market

0.804

0.881

0.990

10%

12%

What you can see in this table is that those players who get market value for their services tend to drop off substantially more than those who don't. In fact, those players who choose location over money tend to increase their performance year after year. **(In reality, this effect is largely driven by the Sedins, but they still serve as a good example to the rule of players willing to sign in a place they belive they have a chance to win in, rather than looking for a big fat payday and heading to Bufflo instead). 

Again, I think this seals the deal on the current free-agency debate, as well as any one that occurs in the future. Burke's current strategy of signing 2nd-tier UFAs to short-term deals will pay off in the long run. Signing washed-up old dudes to 15-year contracts gets you 8 place for a few years, but it also gets you in a lot trouble cap-wise (as well as skill-wise) a few years down the road. 

That said, there are always going to be exceptions to this rule. But this is where the MSM (and us fans, occasionally) often fail to differentiate true elite talent from a flash-in-the-pan (or even just a good, but not stellar, player). However, signing players just for the sake of participating in the free-agent frenzy is illogical, irrational and completely irresponsible. 

But hey, Sather's gotta do what Sather's gotta do. 

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Comments

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interesting correlations, but here are my thoughts:

1. did you account for the age of the UFAs during signing? for example, in your second table, perhaps all the UFAs signing long term deals are older and already know they will drop in production… which is why they are looking for a 4+ year contract. conversely, all the people taking the short term contract are younger and know they’re still on the upswing, so they sign a short contract that ends right about their peak production ages.

2. did you look at the quality of the teams that the UFAs are switching to? for example, in your last table, the pre-market ones are more likely to be already playing on a good team… that’s why they want to stick around… for a good chance at the stanley cup. the market ones may be the ones that are willing to go to shittier teams for more pay… obviously their ppg is going to drop on a worse team, not necessarily because they are not working as hard because of “incentive” issues

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Jul 8, 2011 2:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Age

There are 2 reasons why I don’t think age is an issue here:

1) The reverse of what you suggested tends to be true, where younger guys get signed to longer contracts than those who are older. Brian Campbell is a perfect example. So, looking at the second table, I don’t think age is driving the effect, as the shorter contracts tend to be scattered across all ages.

2) Even if age is a significant factor in creating these effects, this is exactly the point. Players will tend to get worse as they age, particularly in their UFA years. I think point production peaks at about 30. So, when signing any UFA who is older than 30, one should expect their performance to drop, thereby driving down their value. The reverse tends to be true. This is again why Burke’s strategy is smart there. By signing players to only 3 or 4 year contracts, he’s maximizing the potential for the contract to pay dividends, while minimizing the risk.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 8, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

also, don’t forget their decrease from years -2 to -1 is essentially nil. if there’s an age effect we’d probably expect to see it in those years a little as well (which may be counteracting the increased incentive to perform well in the final year).

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 8, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I buy that. Perhaps that -1 year should project to something like .76 ppg, but the incentive of playing in a contract year pushes the ppg to par with the previous year.

by A Lindros Jaw on Jul 8, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think point production peaks at about 30.

I think this number is too high. I would have said closer to 27, but this article implies it’s a little after 25.
 

by Papa Squid on Jul 8, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

point production

peaks around 25… not 30.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

players

that hit UFA status as stars often start when they’re 18-19 in the NHL… they usually peak points wise around 25-27… about 8-9 years after entering the NHL, right when they become UFA’s.

Generally speaking if they’re on a crap team they’ll want to move, and this coincides with their production dipping due to age and playing situation.

I don’t think it’s purely one or the other, but I think age definitely has an impact, and I think surrounding team-mates level of play has a serious impact.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

again, age and team-skill are going to be washed out in these numbers though, as some people will peak in their -1 year, and some players changed teams between their -2 and -1 years, while others stayed with the same team even after going to market.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 9, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

it'd help to see the list

of 34 players you chose, so we had their actual ages. 34 players really isn’t that many to list (which is why I’m confused that we can’t see it).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 10, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the full list, you can see the spreadsheet here.

If you had bothered to actually read it you would have managed to see it.

Also, if you wanted to you include more players, but you’d add more players on the fringes, or you could go back further, but you add the complexity of the lockout year.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 11, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

thanks for repeating 12 hours later what Papa Squid already said.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 9, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

you're welcome.

It’s been said many more times than that on a large number of prior occasions (not that it matters apparently).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 10, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think point production peaks at about 30.

I never assert to know everything about everything, Steve. And the precise age wasn’t really the point.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 11, 2011 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: quality of teams

Again, these things should be roughly scattered across the 30+ players I looked at. Some players are going to go to better teams, while others go to worse teams. I think generally the trend will go upwards though. Players like Brad Richards leave the struggling Stars to go play with a perennial 8th-place contender in the Rangers.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 8, 2011 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

very interesting

it looks like incentive does play a part in a players point production. age could also have something to do with the players production as, in the end it seems like when a point-per-game player is at the point where they want a retirement contract (i.e. Brad Richards) your going to see point production fall off, this could be because they are crippling their new team with a huge cap hit or they are just in the decline of their career and got this retirement contact at the exact right time.

by pho king awesome on Jul 8, 2011 6:50 AM EDT reply actions  

see my comment to jimmy re: age….

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 8, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent post. I had the same thought, glad you took the time to investigate.

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jul 8, 2011 8:34 AM EDT reply actions  

thanks!

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 8, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I feel like this is the most important aspect:

However, signing players just for the sake of participating in the free-agent frenzy is illogical, irrational and completely irresponsible.

Reading all the respective “Free Agency Report Cards” teams are rewarded for giving out stupid contracts to players who are not worth it.

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jul 8, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Puck Daddy’s grades were largely retarded.

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those kinds of stories are more “how good did you do at providing us things to talk about” rather than “how good did you do at building your team”.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 8, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I also found them quite premature, i mean wait at least a friggen week to grade GM’s on their free agency

Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 8, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s an awesome way to look at it. Pizzo and Wysh seem like good guys but they aren’t very sophisticated on how to build a hockey team.

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Me too

I’ve hated relying on FA’s and trades for years. Why? I want to win the Stanley Cup, and you don’t do that with mercs ’ leading’ the way.

by dsciswe on Jul 8, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boston’s roster this year was made up primarily of free agents and players acquired through trades. So was Carolina’s when they won the Cup. Anaheim had a pretty good mix. There’s more than one way to build a team.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 8, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

All teams who won without probably being close to the best team in the league. Well, Boston and Carolina anyway.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Jul 8, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know if I'd say primarily.

I wouldn’t call Patrice Bergeron and David Krejci unimportant… leading scorer, and best all around F.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think primarily is incorrect in this instance. Most of Boston’s top playoff performers and impact players were free agency and trade acquisitions. Thomas, Peverley, Chara, Seidenburg, Kelly, Ryder and Horton all had very good playoffs. Even Kabs who didn’t have a great playoffs, still put up the most points among their D corps. (I might be forgetting one or two).

Lucic was injured (I believe) and didn’t have a good playoffs. Which pretty much leaves, as you mentioned Krecji, Bergeron and Marchand (whom you neglected to mention).

Essentially some of their top scorers and energy men, their dominating top shutdown defensive pairing, their best puck moving d-man and their all-world goaltending came as a result of Free Agency/Trades. So I kind of agree with Drag here.

by Theodles on Jul 8, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

I think trades and free agency are totally different ball games for one thing… I also don’t think the Thomas signing is in the same realm as the Chara deal.

Thomas may have signed as a UFA, but he was signed out of Finland, and brought in through the Bruins minor league system. They didn’t go out and add him as a recent Vezina trophy winner or anything.

Peverley, Seidenberg, Kelly, Kaberle, Campbell and Horton were all added via trade.

Thus the only guys on that list to be significant UFA signings are Ryder and Chara.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2011 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

and frankly

Ryder’s averaged 0.40 and 0.52 ppg the past two years… that isn’t that spectacular a contribution.

The only other player of significance that I think many assume was a UFA signing is Mark Recchi, but they actually obtained him via a trade from Tampa Bay in exchange for Martins Karsums and Matt Lashoff.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2011 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

so of their key contributors

I’d say ONE was added as a UFA of significance… Chara.

The only other top player they got as a UFA was Marc Savard, and he only played 25 games this season, and 0 in the playoffs.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 9, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

STRAWMAN

the point is that they were drafted.

by Ben Schnell on Jul 12, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

how is this a STRAWMAN?
Boston’s roster this year was made up primarily of free agents and players acquired through trades

Then I said this:

Well
I think trades and free agency are totally different ball games for one thing… I also don’t think the Thomas signing is in the same realm as the Chara deal.

and concluded with this:

so of their key contributors
I’d say ONE was added as a UFA of significance… Chara.

I agree with the trade point, but not the UFA… and I think lumping them together is a mistake… how am I diverting the point?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryder had 8 goals and 9 assists in their cup run. That is pretty significant.

Also, the original statement refers to trades and free agents. If you want to dispute the whole different ballpark thingy, take it up with the OP. =D I didn’t write the rules, I just follow them ;)

by Theodles on Jul 9, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

I just think the posting was about UFA signings… trades usually happen via moving out prospects or other players… not UFA’s.

Trades and Signings aren’t the same thing.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 9, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your theories on having to win using only your own drafted and developed players is flawed.

Your starting with a result – a Stanley Cup – and backing out the fact that many players were drafted and developed internally.

The best team wins the Cup, regardless of how it’s been assembled. It just so happens that most teams in the league have a majority of their team drafted and developed by them, because when you have young talented players and hold their rights, you dont often let them go. It’s not a matter of being a ‘merc’ or a ‘developed internally’ player.

And just because we didn’t draft a lot of the players on this team, doesn’t mean we didn’t develop/aren’t developing them (Aulie/Grabovski/Bozak/Gardiner/Colborne etc. You know, those Mercs)

Also, how the hell are traded players mercinaries? Their GM traded them. Jesus you’re out to lunch.

Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 8, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

plus, mercenaries for your cup winning Bruins = Thomas and Chara

Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 8, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't call

Thomas a mercenary… he was playing in Finland and they signed him and brought him over to play in Providence… He played 114 games in Providence in his first 3 years in the Bruins organization (with another 54 games in Finland in the middle during the lockout).

They were the first team to give him a real NHL shot… I don’t think that’s remotely mercenary of the guy.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 9, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

he also didn’t take the traditional “draft and develop” route since he was drafted, forgotten about, went to euroup had an awesome season and was signed as a UFA, then he made his bones in the AHL because the Bruins had big money goalies signed

Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 9, 2011 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno, seems legit to look at all the teams that have been, to divide them into those who won and those who did not, and to start figuring out what it is that makes the two different.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Jul 8, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's flawed in the sense that he's using it to assume a correlation to be causation

Stanley Cup Winning Team —> Many players drafted and developed internally —> Internally drafted players lead to Stanley Cup.

Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 8, 2011 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looks good man

I had the same thought as jimmp about the age of the signees. I think he may still have a point though.
If say I take your word that production peaks at 30 (seems right to me), and let’s even say that the average career ends at 35 (though it may be like 36 or 37), then there are 2+ years of extra UFA signable years for each player. What I mean is that if UFA status can only first occur at 26 or 27 then there’s a higher likelihood of these UFA signings being older than 30 than younger than 30. And that might partially account for the decrease in production.
You’re right about the inverse being true—anyone who signs a contract at 27 is likely still going to improve, whether it be marginally or substantially, just consider my previous point

With that said, this is a super interesting post and its nice to see our theories quantified, so thanks :)

by Ben Schnell on Jul 8, 2011 8:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Also

I should point out that the pre-market market thing might be essentially meaningless, as it seems to be a very recent phenomenon (or I can’t remember it happening prior to the last few years), so I only have 4 good examples of this. If anyone can think of other cases of this, I’ll update the numbers. Not today though. I’m driving 12 hours today from Wisconsin to Toronto….

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 8, 2011 8:56 AM EDT reply actions  

4 examples... well that's not an enormous n, I'm not sure I'd over interpret from there

Speaking of N, what is the sample size here in your two groups?

Very cool project BTW.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Jul 8, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is why I openly root for as few big free agents as possible.

Also, :(

On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
I hate Christian Ehrhoff because he should have been Tomas Kaberle.

by Ubiquitous on Jul 8, 2011 9:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Burke did exactly what aeveryone wanted him to do after the kessel trade!

I used to post on the Leafs forums until they changed to the eye sore ones they have now…. Anyhow I remember most people being pissed at him overpaying for all the guys we went after when we missed out on the Sedin’s and Cams to MTL and even Gaborik! We overpaid for Komisarek and Colby armstrong. Probably whoever else he signed that day. I remember everyone was moaning and groaining that Burke shouldnt be doing a rebuild or build by overpaying for free agents. Now he stopped himself from overpaying for even worse players available and people think he missed out and messed up?? Really?? thumbs up to Burke, I am glad we didnt waste our time on Richards and overpaying him to watch him decline. Make a trade for Stamkos is the only move that should be on Burke’s mind unless he can swing other good trades to improve the team. I cant say I was overly excited about the draft picks, would have liked to see Zach Phillips or Rocco Grimaldi at that 2nd pick but im sure Burke went for BPA since Sens grabbed our 2nd choice. Anyway once again thumbs up Burke! I am liking whyat I am seeing post Kessel trade! Dont get me wrong I like kessel here but I was scared when Boston got Seguine what they might get with the 2nd pick!

by Sinner on Jul 8, 2011 9:29 AM EDT reply actions  

As a PhD in economics

I’m also interested in incentives. So first, let me say, nice job – I enjoyed reading the article.

You may (or may not) also like to hear that there are several published articles that confirm your findings. A good one was the PhD thesis of a student at Duke – Neal Jean.

There is also another interesting aspect to what goes on in free agency, the well-known (in economics) phenomenon of the Winner’s Curse. Free agency is pretty much a common-value auction. Teams bid for players whose value depends on how well they play in the future. Since this is not entirely knowable, teams make their best guess. The winner of the auction is thus generally the one who overestimates the player’s worth by the most. Lawrence Kahn at Cornell has written a fair but about this, and has found considerable empirical evidence for the Winner’s Curse in North American sports.

by Lemonstyx on Jul 8, 2011 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

If you’d like to write anything about the economics of free agency we’d be happy to read it.

(Hint hint)

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Jul 8, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve been meaning to, and some day I will. It’s one of those things that, if I’m going to do it, I’m going to do it right. Looking at the pile of stuff on my desk, it certainly won’t happen before the end of summer. But I will get around to it, eventually, I promise.

by Lemonstyx on Jul 8, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Second.

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jul 8, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a PhD in ninjas

I find this article lacking in shuriken and kitanas.

Don't follow me on twitter: @theninjagreg

by theninjagreg on Jul 8, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

what kind of PhD in ninjas misspells the word “katana”???

I'm building a beautiful statue, to make sure that no one forgets you

by jimmyp22 on Jul 8, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

lol fail

Don't follow me on twitter: @theninjagreg

by theninjagreg on Jul 8, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fool. he was clearly referring to the far more deadly version: A small sword made out of kittens.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Jul 8, 2011 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks! I really didn’t spend any time looking for what might have been done before, but perhaps I remember reading about these findings in a textbook somewhere.

Really looking forward to anything you’re going to post in the future. Bear in mind, I like to do these things as a break from my real work. Don’t worry so much about needing to invest a ton of time and effort into it. Then again, some people around here will jump on you for things like sample size…………..(see below…)

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 9, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the idea here was interesting, but 30 players seems like too small a sample size, and I really do think that accounting for age would be important.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 8, 2011 4:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah

I agree with both of these points. Wouldn’t any PhD in psychology recognize that such a small sample inevitably leads to a large amount of bias in the results?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

urgh, you people

1) If I run a t-test on the values, it comes out significant at p < .07. Which is pretty close to what any scientific journal would require for significance. In other words, we can assume that the obtained difference would be due to chance only 7% of the time.

2) As pointed out by Lemonstyx there are other economics papers that confirm these findings, thereby concluding that it’s even less likely due to chance that the difference exists.

3) I’m always amazed at the layperson’s understanding of sample size issues. In many areas of behavior a sample of 40 is a pretty reliable estimate of the population. 34 isn’t so far off that. Besides, at what point do you, arbitrarily, think is a sufficient sample size? 50? 100? 500? 10000? What’s your basis of descrimination

4) FFS, we’re not curing cancer here, and this isn’t the Journal of Sports Behavior. You guys aren’t willing to read this for what it is?

5)

Wouldn’t any PhD in psychology recognize that such a small sample inevitably leads to a large amount of bias in the results?

Are you questioning the legitimacy of my statement, or my credibility as a scientist? Either way that’s low, even for you.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 9, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

What do you mean you people?

Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 9, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

My background is in history, not statistics, but based on what I know of statistics this still seems flawed to me. You used a non-random sample of just 30 players and then attempted to draw broad conclusions for the NHL as a whole. That doesn’t sound reasonable to me.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 9, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

And accounting for age still seems extremely important to me, especially since the liberalisation of free agency in the most recent CBA has reduced the UFA age from 31 to 27. I would expect to see much more significant drop-off in the production of a 31 year old as compared to a 27 year old. Are the players here dropping off more than other similarly aged players? I don’t think we can really say that without actually looking at similarly aged non-UFA players.

I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull

by Draglikepull on Jul 9, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe. Data I saw someone else breaking out before when we were talking about Brad Richards made the expected decline look pretty linear.

No reason VRN shouldn’t eyeball the age ranges for the different player groups here, though, and see if they aren’t too different.

Remember, all models are wrong, but some are useful.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Jul 9, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, he wasn’t trying to generalize to the whole NHL, he was trying to generalize to free agents who sign long contracts,… by looking at a sample of free agents who signed long contracts.

Yes, sample selection is often a tricky thing, and he probablydidn’t do it perfectly, but unless you have some reason to think his biases systematically distorted his sample such that they are meaningfully non-representative of the people he’s trying to talk about, then he’s all good.

It’s ok, that’s why you’re in history ;)

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Jul 9, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

not long contracts

big contracts. fine hair… it is split.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

if he were

only looking at long contracts it doesn’t make sense to include Lang, Whitney, Stempniak, Samuellsson, Kovalev, Brunette, Stilllman, Hossa, Naslund, or Kariya who all signed for 3 or less years (that’s 10 players out of 34… almost a 3rd of said sample).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

including contracts for 1 year doesn’t make much sense since the players is then immediately back in a position to be playing for their next contract which ruins the whole incentive argument.

This is a problem with the sample … now that I look at it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

In theory if you get a significant result then you’re golden. If you get an insignificant result from a small sample size then it’s hard to conclude anything thing because your power is terrible and there’s probably a better than 50% chance you would have found null results even in the presence of a real effect (seriously, look at sample size power tables some time, they’re hair raising).

In practice small samples (40-60), though they get used all the time in experimental psychology tend to be pretty flaky as far as replicability goes, unless you’re looking at really big effect sizes.

But this is all just academic waffling here, we’re talking about weekend warriors hacking through some hockey stats for fun here. Worth considering, but don’t go staking your life on these numbers. Lay the heck off poor VRN!

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Jul 9, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

you’re my new favorite person.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 10, 2011 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW, there’s a difference between looking at a sample of the population and making some correlation (or regression) of one or more variables against something else and experimental manipulations. experimental manipulations tend to lead to larger effect sizes, hence the smaller sample sizes.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 10, 2011 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Couple of points.

1. telling me you’re a PhD isn’t likely to prove much of anything… it’s an appeal to authority and it’s fallacious as an argument. Getting your back up about people questioning things like your PhD is probably a waste of time.

2. I don’t have your data, so I have no actual idea how big your sample was. You said it was 34 players, and you’re telling me you ran a t-test on the data set to obtain it’s statistical significance. Thing is, I don’t know who the players were, and thus have no idea if the set is even normally distributed, so telling me you ran a t-test to validate things doesn’t help re-assure me without the data.

3. This isn’t an economics paper, or a psych paper, so I am reading it for what it is.

4. Let me know when you DO cure cancer… I have a bridge I can sell you when you start making all that money.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 10, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

You mean this data?

UConn dominance:
- Men's: 2011 National Champs, BET Champs, Kembawesome
- Football: BE Reg. Season Champs, Fiesta Bowl appearance, Todman
- Women's: Final Four appearance, Maya, BE Reg. Season Champs, BET
- Baseball: BE Reg. Season Champs, Springer
- Men's Indoor and Outdoor Track and Field: 2011 Big East Champs, Aaron King
18-1
1967: Embrace it

by derbyguy on Jul 10, 2011 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

1. it wasn’t an attempt to prove anything, more of an interesting anecdote. you’re the one who got your back-up about the fact that i’m apparently grossly underqualified to write pleasant blogs on the interwebz. getting your back up about the fact that i’m probably a lot smarter than you think is probably a waste of time.

2. you do have the data. i thought you were a teacher, steve? don’t you tell your students to read things before responding (and think before they speak)? you’d think any teacher would have enough sense to read something before making a comment like that. maybe you’re not really a teacher? or maybe you’re a lousy one. it’s hard to say. we don’t have the data.

3. you’re reading it like someone with a bone to pick. you choose to be contrarian for the sake of it, and you ignore content, supporting facts (Lemonstyx’s, Wan Ihtes) and appeals to common curtsey and reason just to keep belaboring a point that no one really cares about.

4. interesting how you like to turn stuff back on to me. I criticize you for being too serious, and you criticize me for not being able to cure cancer. classy.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 11, 2011 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

It might also interest you to know that some people have important, time-consuming jobs, and rich fulfilling lives that occupy a significant amount of time. this leaves less time to do things like track down every free agent contract every singed since 2005. If you have that kind of time, good (?) for you, but don’t condemn others for having more interesting things to do.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 11, 2011 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

wow

condemnation? intense.

I missed the spreadsheet… my bad.

I don’t see that adding a few more players would take weeks out of your hectic schedule… sorry. Your rich fullfilling life is obviously very important to you… I wouldn’t ask you to spend any more (or less) time tracking down stats than absolutely necessary.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

you brought up Cancer… not me. speaking of class.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

and

if you don’t care… ignore it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're right

I’m not a teacher… I’m a blogger… and an illiterate one at that… !

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

as for bones to pick

since when did we stop the petty bickering over each other’s postings that’s been going on for well over a year?

It’s not like you don’t partake of the exact same behaviour when you’re assessing what I think or say… so why pretend otherwise?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

WAIT

So if you opened a psych business you could put Doctor on the door?

A Nation of Masochists
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing - Vince Lombardi

by furcifer on Jul 8, 2011 9:23 PM EDT reply actions  

I suppose I could, but I’m not a therapist of any kind.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jul 9, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

well

not if he puts the word “Medical” right in front of it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Jul 17, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

While I’m guessing this was geared more towards forwards, I wonder if this explains why Komisarek was so terrible while Beauchemin was such a beast after they signed here.

Obviously I’m joking since Komisarek always sucked and was overrated. I fell in love with Beauchemin during the 2008-2009 playoffs and was extremely psyched when he came here.

Anyways, sorry to derail the conversation but I just dislike Komisarek so much. To get back on topic, this was a very interesting post. I’m looking forward to seeing how Richards performs (particularly in comparison with Connolly).

by stevesmith19 on Jul 9, 2011 10:59 AM EDT reply actions  

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