Who Are The Goons and Who Do They Fight
by SkinnyFish on Aug 18, 2011 10:38 AM EDT
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PrintThat's the question I've wanted to answer for the longest time. Identifying a goon is like watching porn, you know it when you see it. The goon of which I speak is known for two things; fighting and fighting often. Colton Orr? Goon. George Parros? Goon. Cam Janssen? Oh he's definitely goon. This we can all agree on, but perhaps that's just our confirmation bias at work because we watch Orr ragdoll Matt Carkner on a nightly basis; because Cam Janssen is the scum of the Earth; because George Parros' mustache once beat up Sonny Liston. So what I aim to do is to create a quantitative measure of gooniness in the NHL.
Why do I want to quantitatively measure gooniness? Because I'm of the belief that the goon no longer has a part to play in today's NHL hockey. As Tyler Dellow points out, gone are the days of guys like Bob Probert and Wendel Clark who could both fight and play hockey. Today's "enforcer", in my opinion, just doesn't bring anything of value to his team where it matters; the scoreboard. Further, it's of my belief that the often heard excuse for the need of enforcers in hockey "they protect your best players" is a fallacy. Goons only fight other goons who are only ever on the ice with other goons. Do you think a coach would put someone like Colton Orr, Trevor Gillies, or David Koci on the tice at the same time as Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, or the Sedins? Of course not, they'd get torched every time. I aim to prove these beliefs to be true.
Thanks to the good folks over at ESPN, who actually track fighting majors per player unlike NHL.com, I was able to get fighting stats for every player in the league. To narrow down the study for work load purposes, I set the cutoff for gooniness at 5 fighting majors over the course of the season, (granted this leaves out known scumbags like Francis Lessard, but 5 is a nice round number to use) and got 82 players who love to drop the gloves. I then assembled TOI and scoring data for those players and came up with the stat I'm going to use to rank my goons; Average TOI per Fighting Major (ATOI/FM). Without further ado, here are your Top 15 NHL goons:
| Player | ATOI/FM |
| Trevor Gillies | 13.33 |
| Aaron Voros | 13.40 |
| Eric Godard | 14.00 |
| Derek Boogaard | 14.29 |
| D.J. King | 15.17 |
| Cam Janssen | 15.47 |
| Steve MacIntyre | 17.14 |
| David Koci | 17.88 |
| Colton Orr | 17.92 |
| George Parros | 18.52 |
| Krys Barch | 19.17 |
| Jay Rosehill | 19.29 |
| Paul Bissonnette | 19.38 |
| Kevin Westgarth | 20.27 |
| Ryan Reaves | 23.88 |
The full goon spreadsheet can be found here.
More goon analysis after the jump.
So let's look at those Top 15 players a little more closely. They average 1.07 goals and 1.27 assists, or about 0.07 points per game. Even better? They average 4 fights for every 1 point they score. Real big contributers in the areas that matter. If you expand the list to include all 82 players, it paints a slightly better picture for what a goon is; a 0.20 ppg player. But that's buoyed a bit on the back end by guys like Milan Lucic, Ryane Clowe, Scott Hartnell, and Nathan Horton; the only regular fighters to score more than 40 points.
Today's "enforcer", in my opinion, just doesn't bring anything of value to his team where it matters; the scoreboard.
Opinion confirmed.
Going back to our "Top 15", let us examine who these guys are dropping their gloves with. If you flip over to the "Who Do They Fight" tab of the linked spreadsheet, you'll see the fighting partners for the 161 fights fought by our Top 15 goons. Look at that, more goons. The only names on these fight cards to not appear on my list of the 82 top goons are; Douglas Murray, Kevin Bieksa, Francis Lessard, Jim Vandermeer, Raitis Ivanans, Frazer McLaren, Nicklas Grossman, Mike Weber, Wade Belak, Brandon Mashinter, Tom Sesito, Tim Gleason, Tyson Strachan, and Paul Mara. But even on that list we see known fighters like Lessard, Belak, Bieksa, and Vandermeer. I don't think a single name on these fight cards, aside from Brewer, Lucic, Gaustad, Murray, and Bieksa, can be labled anything more than 3rd/4th line pluggers or bottom pairing defensemen.
Further, it's of my belief that the often heard excuse for the need of enforcers in hockey "they protect your best players" is a fallacy. Goons only fight other goons who are only ever on the ice with other goons.
Opinion confirmed.
Call them what you want; enforcer, fighter, scrapper, or goon; the modern day NHL pugilist is a farce upon the game we all so dearly love. They are a sideshow during games that serve only to distract us from what we really came to see; people playing hockey. Revisiting my original statement: Goons are known for three things; fighting, fighting often, and lessening the game of hockey. The staged fights they engage in bring nothing of value to hockey beyond the enjoyment some fans get from watching two guys punch each other in the face for twenty seconds. The staged fights need to go; the goons need to go. What do you think?
*All stats used came from ESPN.com, hockeyfights.com, and hockey-reference.com
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I’m Colton Orr and if I don’t fight, I don’t have a job.
That’s a given, it should just be yes or no.
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I'm telling you I was the King of Spain (now I eat humble pie)
Now the Leafs call me up to drive the Zamboni
Twitter me this.
by happiergilmore on Aug 18, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions
Well apparently, at time of writing, there are 14 people named Colton Orr who read this blog.
No, my son is also named Bort.
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
by SkinnyFish on Aug 18, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Looks like the NHLPA got to the poll.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s a very common name on the interwebs.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
More and more, I’m coming around to the “goons must go” way of thinking.
The bigger question is: how do you make it happen?
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Aug 18, 2011 10:46 AM EDT reply actions
Agree. Good question though. Gonna be tough without all out banning fighting, and I don’t want to see the Phaneuf-Horton type of fights out of the game.
by maplestirup on Aug 18, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Best (and simplest) suggestion I’ve seen was to have automatic suspensions kick in after a certain number of fights.
My original suggestion was ten, but maybe you could go as low as five. Once you have that many fighting majors, you get an automatic one-game suspension for the next one. Add another game each time, etc. You probably exclude fights where the other guy instigates, but otherwise I think it would work.
It’s a simple change but it tilts the value proposition for employing a goon. You’re basically paying Colton Orr to fight, so if you know he can’t do it 20 times a year than there’s no incentive to have him on the roster. And players could still fight when it meant something — we’d just lose the meaningless ones.
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Aug 18, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I like this suggestion
"Right side, left side, Komi can sit wherever he wants in the press box."
-Bower Power
by MapleLeafMole on Aug 18, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I made a suggestion the other day that goes something like this:
Fights become automatic game misconducts. If you have more than 2 fights per year, you get a 1 game suspension tacked on for each fight beyond the 2nd. So if you’ve had 3 fights, you get a game misconduct and a 1 game suspension, if you’ve had 4 fights, you get a game misconduct and a 2 game suspension, etc.
That way you’re still leaving room for the “I’m standing up for myself” fights that a lot of people still think we need, but players will only do it if they really think it’s worth costing their team a skater for the rest of the game.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
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by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d also be open to a doubling of the suspension instead of just adding a game each time. So 4 fights is a 2 game suspension, 5 fights is a 4 game suspension, etc.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
A 3 strikes and you’re out rule. I like this. It coincides nicely with the game misconduct/suspension rule already in place.
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
Unfortunately it is premised on the assumption that the league actually WANTS staged fighting out of hockey.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I very much doubt the NHL would consider my idea, I was just trying to formulate a proposal that addresses various concerns people have about fighting.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
My only real thought about this is that these suggestions for how to eliminate it are all great, possibly realistic ways of cutting out the 'enforcer' role.
And yet, year after year, season after season, probably 50% of the league signs or has an enforcer on their roster.
Hell, WSH even traded a prospect(Cormier) for DJ King last year.
All the ideas are great, but I don’t see a hell of a lot of indication that GMs/the league are actually trying to limit this type of player in any capacity. It’s essentially enabling it by continuing to sign players who have to justify their paycheck by punchisizing everything on the ice for all 3 minutes they’re allowed to play.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
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by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
They traded Della Rovere. Cormier went from Jersey to Winnipeg in the Kovalchuk trade.
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Ack you win this round…. Rule 5’d
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
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by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
We at SCH have had similar discussions.
I’d say without question the vast majority of hockey fans are opposed to the staged goon fights. If that is indeed a fact, why then do the owners/GMs not eliminate them? Are they that desperate for the very small percentage of hockey fans that come for these sideshows? I don’t know the answer but it really doesn’t seem the league is interested in eliminating those sideshows. The Hawks have John Scott and we’ve dubbed him Fluffy in part because he really is not a deterrent. He’s rarely on the ice when an enforcer is needed and when he is there he rarely gets involved. The majority of his fights last season were with other goons. Scott is actually an articulate, educated, and likeable guy but he should not be playing in the NHL.
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
by Badgerdano on Aug 18, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
Goons offer no protection what so ever. To do so, they’d have to play all the time with the star players (which would really weaken your team) and even then if a guy is going to run your star player he’s probably still going to do it.
The only thing they offer is “retaliation” and it’s not even that if it’s just “you eat some of my fists for 30 seconds and sit in the box for 5 minutes for possibly injuring our best player”
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
by Semi_Colon on Aug 18, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Retaliation at best.
As someone mentioned, typically the goons can’t catch the guy they’re targeting anyway
BTW – nice to see you “trolling” somewhere besides SCH for a change. LOL
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
Ha
I hung around here long before I ever went to SCH
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
On the note of playing all the same shifts, it looks like that was what McSorely actually did with Gretzky.
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To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
Yeah
But Gretzky could pretty well score on his own anyways. Plus that was the old days
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
he only thing they offer is "retaliation" and it’s not even that if it’s just "you eat some of my fists for 30 seconds and sit in the box for 5 minutes for possibly injuring our best player"
Exactly. Perfectly said.
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Punishing Cam Janssen by making him fight Wade Belak is like punishing Tim Brent by making him kill penalties.
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by Back In Black on Aug 18, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not against a system like this, but it doesn’t really get at the problem, which is that there are players who only fight. By this rule, Wendel would have missed a lot of games, which isn’t something I would have wanted, because he’s a player you want on the ice, unlike Orr.
The frustrating thing is that goons don’t make sense for GMs as it is. They cost the team cap money and do nothing to improve the team’s chances of winning games. It seems like it just takes a few GMs to smarten up and then everyone else will realize that they’re setting themselves at a disadvantage. (Of course, that assumes that GMs understand the value each player adds, which, well…Bryzgalov for nine years.)
Come get your duds in order...
Or maybe Wendel would have missed a lot less
by not having to fight so many goons, and avoiding the wear and tear that likely contributed to so many injuries.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 18, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, exactly. If a rule like this was in place, Wendel wouldn’t be out there fighting very often because the team wouldn’t want to lose him from the lineup.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
What if Wendel had already fought 5 guys before McSorley laid the open-ice hit on Gilmour? Then he gets suspended for one of the greatest fights in Leaf history. The point is that the rule doesn’t necessarily do what we want it to do, which is eliminate goons, not the number of fights. A rule that specifically targets goons is way better, in my books.
Come get your duds in order...
Wendel would never have 5 fights in a season with this rule in place because the coach and GM would tell him he’s too important to risk suspensions.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, so then what has this rule accomplished? Wendel, not a goon, fights less. Would actual goons fight less as well? What coach or GM would tell them they’re too important to risk suspensions? No one. Your reasoning for why Wendel wouldn’t have 5 fights doesn’t apply to goons. So now we’ve eliminated fights between real players, and not fights between expendable goons.
Come get your duds in order...
You’re missing the point, which is that if there was a limit on fights teams wouldn’t bother employing guys who the rules prevent from doing the only thing they’re good at.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Or they wouldn’t bother paying them much. But this rule also prevents skilled players from getting in fights. This rule doesn’t target the problem, and it does get rid of a side of the game I like. (Fights, not goon fights.)
Come get your duds in order...
I sincerely doubt any good player needs to be in more than 3-5 fights per year. In fact I find it extraordinarily unlikely.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Lucic, Hartnell, Clowe, Horton. The point is that it’s not the frequency of fights that is the problem, but the culture surrounding fighting (i.e. the fact that teams employ goons). I sincerely doubt that limiting the frequency of fights will change the attitude towards fighting.
Come get your duds in order...
You think those guys would fight that much with a rule in place? No chance.
The culture isn’t going to change unless the rules do. See Copper ‘n’ Blue’s awesome series about the closed loop that is the NHL Old Boy’s Club.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course they wouldn’t fight that much. That’s my point. The rule is limiting non-goon fights, which I like and wouldn’t mind keeping in the game. Unless you think those guys are goons.
Let me be clear: any rule that stops a guy like Horton from fighting is not a good rule, as far as I’m concerned.
Come get your duds in order...
OK, we’ll differ there. I’ll take less Horton fights to get goons out of the game. Chacun son gout.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if Horton winds up with serious brain damage and a difficulty living a normal life outside of hockey as a result?
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, we can go down the brain trauma route, but that’s not what we were talking about earlier. This was about how goons ruin hockey, not how fights ruin brains.
But I’ll say this: the reason brain trauma worries me is that there are guys right now who understand their job to require fighting. That means for them, they fight or they don’t get a contract. That’s a shitty position to be in, knowing about brain injuries. A guy like Horton, though, isn’t really expected to fight. I feel more comfortable that he does it of his own choosing, and in that case, it’s his call if he’s ok with the risk.
Come get your duds in order...
Yeah that article really was phenomenal.
If those guys did fight that much with an effective rule in place they’d be a huge detriment to their team and would (for any Coach/GM who valued winning much) likely find that their icetime was beginning to become scarce.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
you eliminate the goons, you eliminate some of the fights of non-goons, Lucic VS Orr for instance
Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
“Does” and “needs to” are 2 different things. Would San Jose really be a worse team if Clowe stayed on the ice trying to score goals instead of fighting?
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
So are you against fighting in general, now? I thought we were talking about eliminating goon fighting. Clowe isn’t a goon. I’m not interested in limiting his fights.
Come get your duds in order...
There is no way to target just goons without being needlessly complicated. The rule I suggested gives leeway for players who fight occasionally while punishing teams who play goons.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not needlessly complicated if it fills the need to get rid of goons. And it’s not clear how losing Orr for 2 games is a real punishment to the Leafs. Losing Clowe for 2 games is, though.
Come get your duds in order...
It’s a punishment to Orr, who would lose $24,000.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s to get rid of goons, period. If goons are worried about getting suspended and losing money, they won’t fight. If they won’t fight, they need to have hockey skills. If they don’t have hockey skills, GMs won’t sign them. Goon problem solved.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
3-5 thats roughly the number of times teams will face the Pens and Matte Cooke
Bam Bam.- digga digga damm
and Mike Brown can handle Matt Cooke well enough
Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you target goons? Do you put a minimum TOI/gm rule in place? A rule has to be practical.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure you can, I was just saying why I don’t like the proposed rule. As I said before, it seems like there are already incentives to not have goons. It looks like it will take smart GMs more than rule changes.
Come get your duds in order...
It looks like it will take smart GMs more than rule changes.
So what you’re saying is, it’ll never happen.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Dislike the automatic game misconduct for fighting. It stops the “skill” players from fighting, and actually encourages that only disposable players fight. Would the Aulie-Hartnell fight have happened if one or both of them were going to be kicked out? Probably not. Would Orr-Carkner? Probably.
Game misconduct for fighting will achieve the opposite of what I’d like to see.
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by Bower Power on Aug 18, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think 5 minutes for fighting is nearly enough to discourage it. You maybe miss like 3 shifts. It definitely needs to be more than that. If a game misconduct is too much, make it 5 + 10 or something.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Thirded. It’s be a great rule if we wanted fighting out of the game completely.
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The trouble with using a fixed number, like 5 or 10, is that once they’re used up, you’ll need it. Example. Say the max is 5. Orr has his 5 used up, but he’s in the lineup anyway. Then Carkner steamrolls Reimer. Orr is just going to walk away? Or he’ll get suspended for doing the right thing?
I agree with getting rid of goons, but limiting the number of fights isn’t the answer. There must be another way.
BTW – love the above blog post.
"Put the kids in with a few old pappy guys who still like to win and the combination is unbeatable."
Conn Smythe
by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 18, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is guys like Orr wouldn’t be in the league anymore. You’d punish running your goalie the way people did it before the 1990s, by having your toughest guy (who can still play hockey) pound the shit out of him. Which goons never do anyway (they just fight each other).
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus GMs are stubborn enough that if one of their goons hits the quota, they’ll just sign another goon.
Then there will be a goon rotation.
Original member of the Mike Weber bandwagon!
To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
by Ubiquitous on Aug 18, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
God knows there are plenty out there right now to choose from.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s why i’ve concluded you can’t stop fighting with rules… no matter what rules you make, GMs will find a way around them if they want to. They’ve already shown they’re willing to play 1 man short by dressing a goon in the first place, so even banning fighting won’t stop it.
Original member of the Mike Weber bandwagon!
To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
Well, any rule that would be passed would need Board of Governor approval anyway, so it’s not going to happen until the teams are on side with it. There is an easy way to prevent teams from just dressing another goon, which is to eliminate the roster spot of a player suspended for fighting. Goon is gone for 5 games? Then your team can only dress 17 skaters for those games.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This is why you need to do it on a per game basis, instead of a hard cap. There’s a big difference between 5 fights in 15 games (Parros) and 5 fights in a season (Phaneuf).
This is where a witty signature might go.
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by Bower Power on Aug 18, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I saw someone suggest that fighting majors not be offsetting. Put the teams shorthanded.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
But that’d just lead to another “Gretzky Rule” scenario where teams purposefully send out a guy to fight to open up the ice.
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
More and more it seems as though the best solution is to simply eliminate fighting. Game misconduct for anyone who fights. It’d still happen, just not as frequently.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d favour that if they actually penalized dangerous hits consistently. Since they don’t, I don’t mind it if an actual hockey player like Aulie decides to teach Hartnell a lesson for acting like a punk.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
True, still there is little difference from a fight between two goons and two non-goons in terms of potential for serious brain trauma/injury.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Is that true? I thought it was a cumulative thing so someone who fought rarely would probably be OK.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh goons would be at a higher risk. Was just saying that any fight has the potential for concussions or brain injuries.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Let me be clear, my wanting to eliminate goons and their fighting amongst each other has nothing to do with brain trauma.
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
I think you are like the many of us fans that just want to rid the world’s best hockey league of players that don’t belong so only the truly best players, play.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
Yes.
"Right side, left side, Komi can sit wherever he wants in the press box."
-Bower Power
by MapleLeafMole on Aug 18, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Imagine if there were no “4th lines” full of pluggers and fighters, and instead they were kid lines manned by an organizations top prospects. They’d get more icetime than the plugges, which would subsequently lessen icetime for the other lines making the players fresher and leading to games filled with better, more skilled hockey.
A man can dream….
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
But then who would penalty kill if not for the two non-goon members of the fourth line!
Original member of the Mike Weber bandwagon!
To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
by Ubiquitous on Aug 18, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So what you’re saying is that NHL GMs should follow my video game hockey roster construction strategy.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
why not
Add a new wrinkle of a major penalty + game misconduct for any fight that doesn’t follow the run of play – leave the enforcement to the NHL league office since they’re watching all the games anyway and can make the call remotely. So if 2 guys drop the mitts off a faceoff or someone’s just being an ass you can punish it severely. If its just a hockey play stemming from the heat of battle it won’t affect anything.
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by Steve Burtch on Aug 18, 2011 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So you’re basically suggesting that we make the instigator a game misconduct instead of a minor penalty.
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by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Note: Instigators are already 12-minute penalties because they come with an automatic misconduct. (not game)
They really should be a game misconduct though, but i’m afraid that means they’ll just call less of them.
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Right
Let me be clear that I’m still a proponent of spontaneous fighting. Vinny-Iggy, MacArthur-LaRose. Those serve a purpose of sorts to let guys police themselves to an extent, but goon vs. goon at this point is all played out.
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True, I’m just adding my opinion.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Boo-ya!
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Go back to disagreeing. This is too weird.
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by not norm ullman on Aug 18, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You are right, but unfortunately because of the emotional side of the fighting argument, this will not happen without some tentative steps along the way. Many people still say “fighting is a deterrent” or “fighting is a necessary outlet for a charged atmosphere” or “fighting has an impact on momentum.” So you will see these types of small steps – ok maybe we get rid of the goons-v-goons fights, since they dont seem to fit into any of those justifications. Over time, I believe a majority of people and the decisions makers in the NHL will come to the conclusion that those arguments do not support fighting in 99.9% of the cases. But it will not happen overnight.
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Again, like most I still stand when a fight breaks out, and love watching replays of fights. I just think we know to much to allow it to persist as is.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Goonery
guys should fight for 1 reason and 1 reason only: to stop a guy on the other team who tried/succeeded in being dirty and injuring your teammate. If the refs let a $* walk (you know, like Gary Suter or Matt Cooke) then the only way to sop them is to pound them. No need for goons, no need for a sideshow. If the referees allow fricking cheaters to play dirty, the players on the ice can remove him from play.
No need to change any rules really; you drop the gloves for any other reason, you get a game misconduct. Referees just have to call the rules in the book otherwise.
You don’t need goons to chase those guys around though (they’ll never catch em anyway.)
Mike Brown would be way more effective than a goon at killing Matt Cooke, its not like he can fight anyway.
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by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Give an automatic 2-game suspension to a player who has more PIMs than ice-time in any given game. 4 games if the game finishes with a score spread of 3 or more goals.
No questions, no appeals, just, suspensions. Lots of them.
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Two players on that list actually had more PIMs than total TOI for the season. That should not be allowed.
Unfortunatly, that would automatically suspend anyone who gets a game misconduct in the first period.
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To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
Really, it would turn most 10-minute misconducts into 2-game suspensions.
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by Back In Black on Aug 18, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If you get a game misconduct in the first period, chances are you should get a suspension too.
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The bigger question is: how do you make it happen?
That’s the same question I wanted to include, but I couldn’t come up with a way that wasn’t just “Hope for a culture change amongst the GMs”. But as Copper and Blue writes, don’t expect such a thing anytime soon.
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That was a brilliant article.
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by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
(1) you come up with a weird hard to enforce rule, like “if you get more than 3 fights between points, you get a suspension”…
(2) you realize later that it makes no sense and say “why do we still have fighting at all” and get to the real discussion.
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by poploser on Aug 18, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument against a cap on majors per season (I suggested 5; I think Bower Power independently suggested 10), after which you’re done for the year. Someone worried you’d have to turtle if you approached the cap, but I have trouble believing good players would even approach the limit if it existed.
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by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
See above. I like the idea, but with escalating suspensions instead of an outright ban.
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by Down Goes Brown on Aug 18, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that probably works. I’d start with 5 games (because a lot of teams don’t ice goons every game anyway) but we’re just talking nuance now.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
You could limit players’ fights-per-GP.
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by Bower Power on Aug 18, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s a similar approach.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
WHY DO YOU HATE HOCKEY
WHY ARE YOU ANTI FIGHTING
SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE IN CAR CRASHES WHICH GIVE THEM BRAIN INJURIES WHY DONT WE BAN CARS
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by not norm ullman on Aug 18, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
its not a brain injury, its a birth defect
jeez, some people
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by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Next year at R&D camp,
Shanny and his crew are going to install computer chips into the helmets of goons.
These will emit a signal that sounds like Pierre McGuire singing “La Bohème” or Barry Trotz eating oysters on the half shell (depending on region) if two goons approach each other, discouraging staged fights in about 6 minutes.
You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
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signal that sounds like Pierre McGuire singing "La Bohème" or Barry Trotz eating oysters on the half shell (depending on region)
I laughed.
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by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
so is your face
Where is Jared anyway?
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by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 18, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I work a job with out a computer to fuck around all day on
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by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
So you got telepathy or somethin'?
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by not norm ullman on Aug 18, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh…. Yeah….. Ya don’t say…. Pretty amazing…. Nice to talk.
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by not norm ullman on Aug 18, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Geez, Jared, he was just asking!
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by Back In Black on Aug 18, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
lets just say there is an ap for that
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by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If you combine this with 67 Sounds’ study over at Leafs Nation about correlation between goon’s and winning a pretty clear picture emerges.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 10:47 AM EDT reply actions
Or rather lack of correlation.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Right.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
You simply cannot have a better written summary than this:
Call them what you want; enforcer, fighter, scrapper, or goon; the modern day NHL pugilist is a farce upon the game we all so dearly love. They are a sideshow during games that serve only to distract us from what we really came to see; people playing hockey. Revisiting my original statement: Goons are known for three things; fighting, fighting often, and lessening the game of hockey. The staged fights they engage in bring nothing of value to hockey beyond the enjoyment some fans get from watching two guys punch each other in the face for twenty seconds. The staged fights need to go; the goons need to go. What do you think?
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Of the top 15 list you posted, I don’t think one of those guys played with a team with a realistic chance of winning the Cup this past season.
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by camcharron on Aug 18, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’ll Zig that.
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by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Should goons be taken out of hockey? Yes. Should fighting be taken out of hockey? No.
by Tickle Me Aulie on Aug 18, 2011 11:03 AM EDT reply actions
Does anyone think there are times when two teams are headed toward nuclear meltdown, and a fight between two goons ends up putting out the fire?
What about if a goon destroys one of your best players one game, serves his suspension, then returns to your home rink? Should he be marked for death? Should he at least think he’s marked for death, just so he can wring his hands leading up to that date?
I can’t stand the gloves dropping when the puck drops nonsense. That’s one end of the spectrum for me. At the other end is McSorley and Clark. I’m just trying to define some points in between and decide where I stand.
by PlatinumSeatElite on Aug 18, 2011 11:04 AM EDT reply actions
McSorley and Clark could both play.
If there are no goons there are no goons to destroy your best players.
I can’t remember ever seeing a time when a goon-bout defused a situation.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
If there are no goons there are no goons to destroy your best players.
I know you aren’t saying this, but the argument for goons kind of comes down to “We need goons so they can punish goons who maim defenceless skill players!”
Um, no, you just need to get rid of goons so they can’t take a chickenshit late shot at Kaberle in the first place.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m just answering the literal question you asked
Everyone in the ACC was waiting for it. As soon as it happened, both teams went about their business.
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Yeah I know, I’m just pointing out it’s a terrible reason to defend goons (which I’m not suggesting you are doing).
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s not always the goon that destroys the skill player. Substitute “goon” with “player”. It doesn’t have to be Belak and Janssen.
by PlatinumSeatElite on Aug 18, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not proposing to take non-goons out of the game. And goons rarely fight non-goons, even ones who have destroyed skill players, because of “The Code”. Matt Cooke didn’t have to fight a goon after he ruined Savard, did he? Does Boston even carry a goon?
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Shawn Thornton, but he’s closer to Mike Brown than Colton Orr.
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by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I find the 55-65 min/FM range to be an acceptable level of goonery, personally. Especially because a lot of the guys in that range at least put up double-digit points.
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Thornton can play. He’s a lot better than Brown methinks.
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by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps, but he is the guy on the Bruins who fights if they think a fight is necessary.
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by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m just saying he’s a guy that would still be in the league if there was some kind of rule to eliminate goons.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but if the question is “did Cooke have to fight a goon,” the answer is “he fought the closest thing to a goon that the Bruins have.”
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by Bower Power on Aug 18, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
But he didn’t have to fight a guy who wouldn’t be in the league with an anti-goon rule. Which, to me, is more to the point.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
As in, “you can still get retaliation for a dirty hit without a ‘goon’ player”? In that case, yeah, I agree.
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by Bower Power on Aug 18, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Well put.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Go ahead and hack Phil Kessel. Sooner or later one of Phaneuf, Schenn, or Komisarek is going to fill your shit in.
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I do agree with you, but to play devil’s advocate, the counter here could be that Komi was the “toughest” guy (but not a fighter) on the Habs roster when he fought Lucic, and felt compelled to giv’er when things were getting out of hand. End result was a dislocated shoulder, which has been an ongoing problem for him since. I don’t mean to be crass, but at the time, he’s part of your top pairing. Do you want him going down to injury because he’s “a player who can occasionally fight”?
I go back to the idea that teams can settle their differences by proxy, through their enforcers. (Note that this is not something I’m necessarily advocating; trying to decide if it actually happens, and what value is possibly has.)
by PlatinumSeatElite on Aug 18, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It isn't just goons who take cheap shots
Avery and Cooke aren’t goons. They’re pests.
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by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 18, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Brad Ross better become a well-rounded hockey player instead of a total nutjob or he might not have a job by the time he’s ready for the NHL.
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by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, it happens. And I’ll also defend the idea of fights right off a faceoff. Sometimes a fight is coming, it servres a purpose, and you might as well get it out of the way. I did a post a while ago with ten clips of faceoff fights that mattered, and it wasn’t hard to find them.
I just think those cases are being overshadowed by the useless stuff.
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by Down Goes Brown on Aug 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Part of why they “matter” is because “the code” has given them subjective meaning. They only serve a purpose in the very specific circumstances. If you eliminate that aspect as acceptable behavior they would lose a lot less meaning. Let’s alter the narrative and say that Phil Kessel scoring a goal is retribution for any injure of cheapshot, coach Bombay style.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec’d.
DGB said "Sometimes a fight is coming, it servres a purpose, and you might as well get it out of the way. "
More and more, we’re seeing people question what “purpose” fighting serves…and i believe that more and more people are (slowwwwwly) coming to the conclusion that the “purpose” it serves has, at best, an indirect connection to the ultimate game.
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I think what you see is that the “worthwhile” fights are heavily outweighed by the “unnecessary” fights. And how do you allow one but not another? How do you draw the line? As soon as you start saying “well some fights are truly necessary” to the game, you are likely carving out a majority of the fights. And then you should be asking “ok, well of those fights that remains, how many of them are truly necessary?” Ask enough questions with a critical eye, and you will quickly be left with a handful of fights per year.
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I think a good start would be calling the instigator rule.
I hate that 80% of open ice hits result in someone dropping the gloves to go after the hitter. Clearly, the instigator should be applied in these instances, yet it so rarely is. I can’t think of another rule in hockey (I’m sure there is one) that is so routinely ignored by the officials.
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by mf37 on Aug 18, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Good point. Seems like any easy enough fix.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Last season, there were 1284 fighting majors called, so 642 fights. Only 49 instigators penalties were called. That’s 1 instigator for every 13 fights (7.6%).
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
Im actually surprised its that frequent.
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826 of those fighting majors, by the way, were by players in the “goon” spreadsheet (though I don’t know if I would count some of these names near the bottom – Brewer? Horton?) This means that 64.3% of all fighting majors are called against the goon players in Skinny’s spreadsheet.
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We have to be careful
Be warned, I tend to use rhetorical questions.
I agree that the instigator should be called on a fight started after a CLEAN hit. It’s a clean hit, it’s part of the game, why start a fight over it? But if the play was a blatant headshot (Savard) or a slewfoot, then the instigator shouldn’t be applied (IMO) – the player is protecting his teammates who got injured on an illegal play. So now we’re asking the referee to make a judgement call to whether the fight is warranted.
Remember that the referee doesn’t make that call that anymore – it’s left to the Colie Campbell’s and Shanahan’s of the world, handing down suspensions and what-not after watching every angle on every replay available.
Is it too much to ask the ref to make the same call after just watching it live, without the use of replays?
What if it occurred after running a goalie. Was he pushed in? Was it blatant? Was the fight justified? No easy answers. It’s a wonderful conundrum!
by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 18, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
the player is protecting his teammates who got injured on an illegal play.
He isn’t “protecting” anyone, as the teammate is already injured. And therein lies the problem. There’s nothing preventative about having a goon – only retaliatory. And in cases of retaliation, it’s perfectly fine to have a player who is skilled and can still fight (as in the case of Shawn Thornton, who later fought Cooke).
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by Bower Power on Aug 18, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
OK, but if you don’t retaliate, then you’re Sedin getting rabbit-punched in the Cup finals. How did that work out for them?
To reiterate, I’m anti-goon, but still pro-fighting. If your player goes down, or events are escalating to a ‘boil’, you need players who can handle themselves so that the non-fighters (Kessel’s and the like) don’t need to drop the gloves.
by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 18, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldnt agree less. The reason we have payers jumping guys over clean hits is because they are trying to police themselves. The reason we have the players feeling the need to do that is because the enforcement of rules by the on-ice officials, and the enforcement of off-ice discipline by the NHL (and NHLPA indirectly), is a complete mess.
The reason Vancouver got screwed in the SCF on Sedin getting punched in the head isnt because they didjnt retaliate – its that the league and its officials allow players to get punched in the head without penalty.
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The reason Vancouver got screwed in the SCF
Canucks fan? Just asking.
…is a complete mess.
So if such is the case, then as long as the enforcement of the rules by the on-ice officials and off-ice discipline it is a complete mess, then the players need to police themselves. Hence, fighting is part of the game. Thanks for agreeing with me!
by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 18, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Hold on there. You’re begging the question of whether players who feel the need to police themselves can actually effectively do so. IMO all they end up doing is adding more violence.
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by Back In Black on Aug 18, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Why else would they fight, if not for the need to police themselves?
If there were no cheapshots, I don’t see the need for fighting. Do you?
If they’re fighting just for the sake of fighting, then we’re back to talking about goons. Which I’ve stated, I’m not a fan of goons. I like hockey players who can fight. Not fighters who can play hockey.
by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 18, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Why else would they fight, if not for the need to police themselves?
My point is, if that’s the reason they fight it’s not working. Just because they do it doesn’t make it effective.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 18, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The reason Vancouver got screwed in the SCF on Sedin getting punched in the head isnt because they didjnt retaliate – its that the league and its officials allow players to get punched in the head without penalty.
Moreso “screwed” because they couldn’t score any goals on the powerplay, so the Bruins could do whatever they wanted with impunity
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also refs tend to give less credence after such incidents as the Rogers Arena sniper taking out Danny….or was it Henrick? ah who ever the hell it was
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by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
McSorley and Clark were both good players
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by MapleLeafMole on Aug 18, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Clark’s modern-day equivalent would be someone like Milan Lucic; someone who scores and fights.
McSorley’s modern-day equivalent would be someone like Matt Carkner; someone whose value comes from their ability/willingness to fight, but on talent alone is probably a #6 defenceman (ie easily replacable)
Let’s not try and argue McSorley and Clark were in the same calibre here, which we’re dangerously close to doing.
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Let’s not try and argue McSorley and Clark were in the same calibre here
They’re not; I’m not. McSorley had a place as a defenceman in the NHL. Agree with what you are saying here though, for sure
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by MapleLeafMole on Aug 18, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if Management might push to reduce roster limists as part of the next CBA negotiations?
Teams are currently permitted to carry 23 players, but many only carry 21 or 22 for cap/budget purposes.
If the roster limit drops to 20, would goons be the first to go?
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I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t be.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Most GMs are stubborn rednecks?
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What I should have said was “I can’t imagine why they shouldn’t be” I guess. But that’s kinda stupid. We all know they should be.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I think 23 is the perfect number because it affords an injury fill-in at each position over the standard 12, 6, 2 team makeup.
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
And if a team is set on icing a goon, they’re gonna find a way to do it. I defniitely should have used “should” above because even with 23 players why should goons get ice time? I think the best approach is something like many have outlined above, where the rules actually deter fighting for the sake of fighting so that players who don’t serve any other purpose are effectively eliminated from being of any use to an NHL roster.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Sadly, when you consider how difficult it was to get the GMs to do something about head-shots, I’m doubtful any of them would consider rule changes to deter fighting.
Bitter Leaf Fan Blog | You can Follow Me on Twitter
This is true.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Good point. Extremely frustrating that so many great ideas thrown around by so many in places like this may never see the light of day, so to speak.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure, but a 20 man roster also means 2 or 3 fewer mandated NHL-level salary commitments. That’s a multi-million dollar saving, which many teams could use.
Bitter Leaf Fan Blog | You can Follow Me on Twitter
There’s no requirement to have 23 players on your roster.
Original member of the Mike Weber bandwagon!
To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
Here’s an idea: next comment why don’t you try adding something to the conversation.
Bitter Leaf Fan Blog | You can Follow Me on Twitter
by mf37 on Aug 18, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
On the flip side, I’d love to know how many owners think fighting sells tickets?
Bitter Leaf Fan Blog | You can Follow Me on Twitter
Lit Review
Well, there would have been longer one but i accidentally refreshed the page and killed all my blockquotes. Here’s the highlights:
GMGM on DJ King:
He added: “We categorize fighters in three different ways. One group, the least desirable, are just fighters. The second group are fighters who can play a little bit. The third and most desirable are players who can fight a little bit if they have to.”
I like how he infers that DJ King is a viable hockey player here…
Murray on George Parros (whos not terrible, but still not a hockey player)
The deal announced Thursday reflects Ducks general manager Bob Murray’s desire to retain their primary enforcer and fan favorite.
"His character and toughness on the ice, along with his commitment to our community have been valuable assets for the organization," Murray said in a statement.
pro-enforcer here.
Trevor Gillies
The islanders had no comments on their news articles from important people other than announcing a support section for Gillies’ mustache…
Steve MacIntyre
Everyone in the world seems to think the penguins need to sign more goons… jeez.
Cam Jannsen
The Devils seem to be required to sign a goon (often more than one) and go and pick the worst hockey players they can find (Like Andrew Peters!). Lou says nothing about anything, as is traditional.
Original member of the Mike Weber bandwagon!
To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
Im sure all of them do – I think the real question is “how many owners are afraid that a ban on fighting will have a material impact on ticket sales”.
And really, this shouldn’t be a legit question. How many people honestly are going to stop watching hockey games because there are no fights? How many people turn off the SC finals? There’s a low likelihood of a fight there, but people still watch.
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo
http://twitter.com/PopsTwitTar
Yes, your re-write of my question was what I was driving at and much better said.
Unfortunately, so long as the owners appoint the attendees to the NHL BoG meetings, the question might not be legitimate but I’m certain it contributes to the decision making process.
Bitter Leaf Fan Blog | You can Follow Me on Twitter
You’re ornery today.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I think we can all agree that value-add comments like this will certainly decrease any ornery-ness.
Bitter Leaf Fan Blog | You can Follow Me on Twitter
by mf37 on Aug 18, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you say things like that it will only make mf37 angrier.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
you wouldn’t like him when he is angry
Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 18, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
When talking about how to change behavior most people assume that knowledge is enough. If we show those in charge the data they will alter their beliefs accordingly. Unfortunately, as I have been endeavoring to illustrate, people aren’t rational. I was reading about a study that found that scientific knowledge itself did not correlate with a lack of believe in superstition and things like Angels and ESP. They key is changing the WAY people think rather than WHAT they think. This is a much more difficult task.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
In many cases, damn near impossible. Very well put.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
There’s also a growing body of evidence that many people, when confronted with objective evidence that what they believe is wrong, will actually become more entrenched in their incorrect belief.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I like you, crazy Rangers fan.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Identifying a goon is like watching porn, you know it when you see it.
Do you even watch the games?
"Right side, left side, Komi can sit wherever he wants in the press box."
-Bower Power
samezies
"Right side, left side, Komi can sit wherever he wants in the press box."
-Bower Power
by MapleLeafMole on Aug 18, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Insert picture of George Parros here.
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo
http://twitter.com/PopsTwitTar
by poploser on Aug 18, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well done.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Call them what you want; enforcer, fighter, scrapper, or goon; the modern day NHL pugilist is a farce upon the game we all so dearly love. They are a sideshow during games that serve only to distract us from what we really came to see; people playing hockey. Revisiting my original statement: Goons are known for three things; fighting, fighting often, and lessening the game of hockey. The staged fights they engage in bring nothing of value to hockey beyond the enjoyment some fans get from watching two guys punch each other in the face for twenty seconds. The staged fights need to go; the goons need to go. What do you think?
What do I think?
I think this paragraph summarizes my thoughts and opinions on the subject fully completely.
Dellow’s post that I read today was good as well.
Time for the “goon” to go
"Right side, left side, Komi can sit wherever he wants in the press box."
-Bower Power
I’m all for rough play and I love seeing Colton beat the hell out of the opposition, but last season I started thinking, what’s the good of this? I rather have players with skill who can also intimidate with a strong forecheck and good hits. What’s the good of 4th liners beating up the oppositions 4th liners?
Watching Colton fight whomever Washington’s enforcer is doesn’t stop Ovechkin from scoring. The best way for the opposition to take our enforcer out of the game is not to dress one of their own. I believe Montreal did this last year, and as a result our 4th line hardly played while they would roll 4 lines.
what’s the good of this?
This thought was also amplified by the fact the Leafs played a hell of a lot better without Colton Orr than they did with him. Of course, this can be mostly explained by the ‘Reimer’ effect…. but the Leafs also gave him a lot more goal support in the latter half.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
My only problem with getting rid of the goon (and I don’t know how or even if this can be quantified) is the psychological effect goons have on opposition. While there isn’t too much science behind this effect, it is my perception that when facing a team with a “goon” or tough guy on it a player is less likely to take liberties with the star players of said opposing team. You don’t see too many teams taking liberties the bruins (cause big brother Chara is watching over their shoulder) or last year, the Rangers (the boogeyman effect). On the other hand, teams will be more willing to rough up smaller teams that are not known for icing tougher players (canadiens, canucks, etc.). So I really believe it’s a psychological effect that the goon brings to the ice (an expensive one that takes up space on the cap, however).
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:13 PM EDT reply actions
Rome hitting Horton??
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
I believe this is more the exception, than the rule as it was the SCF.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The Canucks also didn’t really get “roughed up” until the Finals either though, and I would argue that the powerplay doing absolutely nothing was more a factor than the Bruins icing “tough guys”
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
PP was a factor in what? I’m not saying that this psychological factor directly translates to a win, but it can lead to safer ice surfaces for star players to do what they do, which gives the team a better chance of scoring, indirectly improving the odds of winning.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If fighting was such a deterrent, wouldnt the Bruins appropriate response have been to start beating up Canucks?
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo
http://twitter.com/PopsTwitTar
I’m not debating about fighting here, I’m just making a point that psychologically, when there is a hulking ogre on the ice, the opposition seems less likely to take runs a the star players. Of course there are always exceptions with dirt bags who could care less either way.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
JT Bourne wrote a good piece a while back about how he loved it if opponents iced a goon because it meant easy goals. What he feared was good, tough players.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m amazed that anyone would be surprised by this. We are talking about professional hockey players – some of the toughest men in sports. These are people who willing throw themselves in front of frozen pucks travelling 75-100 mph. Guys who regularly play through broken bones. And we’re supposed to believe that they are going to cower from the threat of getting his in the face a few times? Even that isnt likely to happen – watch any fight, and you’ll see as many punches land on helmets and shoulders as faces.
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo
http://twitter.com/PopsTwitTar
Major Junior
weeds out any player who can be intimidated by goons.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 18, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Detroit hasn’t had an enforcer for years and their stars seem to be doing OK.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but at the same time, Detroit’s players, aren’t very soft. Even their premier guys can play a pretty gritty game (Z, Dats, Lids).
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
And who stood up for Kris Draper when Claude Lemieux tried to cave his head in? It was Darren McCarty. I don’t think he falls into the same category as a guy like Janssen, McIntyre or Orr.
What I’m saying is that you don’t need players whose only “value” is dropping the gloves to prevent other teams from taking liberties with your players, stars or otherwise. Really this is something the League should handle in terms of discipline, but we’re all pretty skeptical of their ability to do so.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting fact i never knew: Claude Lemieux was a 40-goal scorer.
Original member of the Mike Weber bandwagon!
To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
Did NHL.com accidentally credit Claude with some of Mario’s goals in their stats page?
…jk
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? I never really saw McCarthy as much more than a goon (maybe a good shutdown/grind guy, but I think this came more as a result of playing with Malts/Draper.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is he was a good shutdown/grind guy. Janssen, Orr, are bad at most things that make a hockey team successful.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck it, bad at all things that make a hockey team successful.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Brad May.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
My only problem with getting rid of the goon (and I don’t know how or even if this can be quantified) is the psychological effect goons have on opposition. While there isn’t too much science behind this effect, it is my perception that when facing a team with a "goon" or tough guy on it a player is less likely to take liberties with the star players of said opposing team.
You are right, this is completely psychological. You see what you want to see, and I’ll admit, i see the complete opposite. But what I do see is players taking liberties, and not suffering any consequences for it, goon or no goon.
Look at the top “pests” – Cooke, Avery, Ruutu…pick your favorite. What you will see is that (1) they rarely fight (2) they even more rarely fight the “heavyweights”, and (3) being in fights seemingly has effect on their actions.
This is basically an extension of the “fighting is a deterrent” argument, and, from what I can tell, it doesnt deter anything.
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo
http://twitter.com/PopsTwitTar
I disagree
First of all, I don’t think Chara is a goon.
Secondly, the Hawks have Scott who clearly falls into the definition of a goon and he was not much of a deterrent at any point in the season.
Finally, the Hawks won the Cup in 2010 (and the Bruins this year) without any goon on the team which proves it’s not necessary. Gritty players who can “fight a little” yes, but not someone who can “fight but not play.”
Thank you, sir! May I have another?
Even if Chara is a goon (which I agree, he’s not, not in the sense that a hockey player is a goon anyways) he’s still a Norris caliber defenseman. His is not the kind of player that needs to be out of the game, and not the kind of player I think we’re talking about in most of these discussions.
by Self Destructive Zones on Aug 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, Chara is not a goon, but he is probably tougher than any goon out there. But I was trying to make a point in regards to having tough guys on the ice. Sure, it would be nice if every tough guy could also score, but lets face it, these guys are not available on every corner that’s why many teams have to resor to having the “tough with no skill” player. But I agree, every player should bring skill and toughness to the table. Where are the players like Messier, Richard, Howe, Lindros, Belak, and Primeau gone?!?
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
ooops, how did Wade get in there?!?!?
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is (sorry) re-heated nonsense with no evidence to back it up.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You see, like I said it’s hard to quantify/provide evidence. But a coach/GM could easily try and justify it and how would you argue against it. For every counter-point, he would come back with more examples of “big-brother”.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s actually not that hard to provide evidence contradicting your theory.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
So good
As a Twitter follower once asked me: How much does it prevent Pittsburgh Penguins winger Matt Cooke(notes) from running, say, Mats Zuccarello(notes) of the New York Rangers from behind if the price is that now Eric Goddard is going to fight Derek Boogaard because the game is getting out of hand?
It doesn’t prevent it at all. Matt Cooke is never going to fight Boogaard, so there’s no reason for him to change the way he plays.
For me, I knew there was a zero percent chance that I would ever end up in a fight against our opponent’s heavyweight, so when that guy was out there, it was like being on a powerplay. Most hired goons can’t play (especially at the lower levels), so unless they were the type to use cheap stickwork, they were irrelevant to me.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Ayup. I really enjoy the perspective Bourne provides.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You see, once again you’re going directly to fighting. How about this: sometimes the “biggest, toughest guys on the ice with no skill” don’t do the most fighting. People steer clear of these guys (why Boogard isn’t even on this list above for highest ATOI/FM or why the guys at the top are Ryan Reeves instead of Orr or Parros). I’m not trying to claim that fighting leads to more wins, I’m saying having a guy with a repuation leads to safer ice for the stars.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
They’re never on the ice together, that doesn’t make any sense.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 18, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
why Boogard isn’t even on this list above for highest ATOI/FM
Boogaard is 4th
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
Cripes, I should have opened the whole spreadsheet instead of just looking at the summary.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
would you believe me if I told you I read the list backwards?
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Does having chinese food for lunch qualify me to claim “yes”?
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay then, still NO.
(And isn’t chinese read top to bottom? Or is that Japanese?)
Yikes, my head is spinning.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Right to left I believe.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you read the piece? If anything, teams with goons suffer more injuries. There’s just no evidence in support of the claims you are making.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Aha! I thought someone had put together a piece like that.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s an easy way to try and see if that’s actually the case – look at the rate of injuries for teams that have goons and on teams that don’t. If teams with goons consistently have less injuries, you’re probably right, otherwise you’re probably not.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Which I did—link above.
I’ll give you one guess as to the result.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Generally speaking, you can’t prove that something isn’t the case, since it’s impossible to measure something that isn’t there. That’s why the burden of proof falls on whoever is claiming that something is the case.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Aug 18, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Generally speaking, you can’t prove disprove that something isn’t the case?
You’re right, that’s why I started my original post with the disclaimer, but as semi_colon mentioned below, I could have phrased my post to read “big, tough guy” instead of using “goon”.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If only I had posted an article about big, tough guys and how there is no place in hockey for them…….
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
yea, yeah, that’s fair… I’m blaming it on my brief alotted lunch hour.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Aug 18, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
No wonder Schenn hasn’t been signed yet.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 18, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
the psychological effect goons have on opposition.
I’d wager it’s near zero. Justin Bourne wrote about it how as a former player he never worried because he wasn’t a fighter, so he never had to fight them. What he worried about were guys like Phaneuf who could lay you out with a huge hit, and I most certainly would not call Phaneuf a goon.
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
Great minds think alike
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
by The '67 Sound on Aug 18, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That seems to be what he was heading towards by saying Chara was a"goon". It’s the big guys that can crunch you that tend to act more as deterrents.
I think he chose the wrong word there
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
The past is the past
hopefuuly the Dinosaur Circus Master Cherry goes with them. That being said:
RIP Boogyman.
Well, that’s good. Now your feelings match your head.
Follow someone else on Twitter.
by not norm ullman on Aug 18, 2011 9:04 PM EDT reply actions
Self Promotion
Fascinating commentary. Well done. Other opinions from the hinterlands.
Warning: I think this will take you away from this good site. You might want to think twice. On the other hand, I haven’t seen quite the same opinions voiced, so you might enjoy the different thoughts. Or not.
http://darkbluejacket.blogspot.com/2011/08/fighting-tragedy-and-passion.html
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