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Why Gunnarson is better than you think!

Gunnarsson_medium

Like many around here, I am ecstatic with the return of NHL hockey.  Very few things have made me as happy as seeing the boys in blue lace 'em up and go battle the evil Sens or take it to the Flyers in their own arena.  However something has been pissing me off a lot at this joyous time.  It is the assertion that Carl Gunnarson should be a bubble defenseman and that he should be near the bottom of the Leafs defenseman depth chart.  

Read on after the jump for why I think Gunnarson is a pretty damn good defenseman and deserving of a top 4 role with the club.

Star-divide

Here are a few examples of what I am talking about:

Two from Mike Ulmer at mapleleafs.nhl.com (the quotes are links to the articles)

Defence: The race is between Mike Komisarek and Carl Gunnarsson for the sixth spot. A slimmed down Komisarek has impressed but Gunnarsson is a better skater who brings more speed but a less imposing presence around his own net.

With Phaneuf, Keith AulieLuke SchennJohn-Michael Liles and Cody Franson not really having to break a sweat to start the season October 6 against Montreal, you have three contestants, Gunnarsson, Mike Komisarek and Gardiner fighting for the remaining spot.

Two from journalists who I generally like, Jonas Siegel (my second favourite sports journalist) and Dave Shoalts:

Along with Gardiner - who is pushing the likes of Mike Komisarek, Carl Gunnarsson and Cody Franson for a job -Siegel

The Leafs’ defence is supposed to be a closed shop heading into the NHL season, with the seven roster jobs locked up. Training camp would decide who will get the job as the sixth defenceman and who will spend most of his time in the press box – Carl Gunnarsson or Mike Komisarek. -Shoalts

Offense from the back end

The Leafs last year had a lot of problems, one of which was a lack of offense from their back end.  To solve that Burke went out and acquire to defenseman known for the offensive side of their games, JM Liles and Cody Franson.  While I definitely do not begrudge these moves (in fact I like them), part of their offensive growth from the back end should come from giving Gunnarson more playing time.

If you had to guess, where do you think Gunnarson would rank in points by a defenseman over his career?  Keeping in mind that there are 30 teams in the league and each team roles 6 defenseman at a time, many would likely think he would rank around a typical #4 or 5 defenseman or around 120th in D scoring.  Lets see where he actually ranks:

Season

Games Played

Points (Rank among defenseman)

Points Per Game (Rank among defenseman)

2009/2010

43

15 (T 118-128)

0.35 (T 66-70)

2010/2011

68

20 (T 83rd-85th)

0.29 (T 82-86)

2009/2010 + 2010/2011

111

35 (T 97-102)

0.32 (T 78-86)

*All stats come from www.hockey-reference.com
**min 30 GP was used for per game stats for one season and min 60 GP for 2 seasons

If we look at his actual production in points he produced at about a 4th-5th defenseman in his first year, an average 3rd defenseman in his second year, and through both years ranked at about a 4th defenseman.  However this is putting Gunnarson at a large disadvantage.  In his first year he played ~a half a season and in his second about 3/4 of one.  If we thus look at his production in a per game manner he comes in as a good 3rd defenseman in his first year, poor 2rd defenseman in his 2nd year and an average 3rd defenseman throughout his career.  But is this really telling the whole story?  Part of my assertion is not only that he should be playing more games, but that he should be getting more minutes.  Lets see how he did on a per minute basis:

 

Even Strength

Power Play

Season

Time on Ice per 60 minutes (Rank among defenseman)

Points (Rank among defenseman)

Points Per 60 (Rank among defenseman)

Time on Ice per 60 minutes (Rank among defenseman)

Points (Rank among defenseman)

Points Per 60 (Rank among defenseman)

2009/2010

15.93 (100)

12 (T 111-126)

1.05 (T 24-25)

1.85 (84)

2 (T 113-125)

1.50 (98)

2010/2011

13.86 (164)

16 (T 71-78)

0.96 (T 37-39)

1.30 (96)

4 (T 83-89)

2.72 (60)

*All stats are from www.nhl.com and www.behindthenet.ca
*Min 30 GP and 1 minute of ice/60 (for both Even Strength and Power Play) was used for ranking

This paints a very different picture.  While Gunnarson only produced 12 and 16 ES points in his first two seasons (ranking him as a 4th-5th defenseman and a 3rd defenseman), he did that playing just under 16 and 14 minutes in his two seasons ranking him at 100th and 164th for ice time.  If we look at his per minute production it rockets him to playing at a top 30 level in his first season and top 40 his second season.  Similarly his power play production would rank him as a 4th or worse defenseman.  But if we look at it in regards to his meager ice time he begins to look much better.  An interesting thing to note is the only time in these 4 situations where his ranking in minutes was better than his ranking in production was in his power play time in his first season.
*A caveat for this section is that his power play numbers are dealing with a tiny sample size (2 and 4 points) so the variance could very well be higher than any significance I am trying to show.

What this shows to me is that, at least offensively, Gunnarson is deserving of more minutes.  From a per game perspective he has produced at the level of a 3rd defenseman (around 80th in the league), while at an ES minutes perspective he was producing at an extremely high level.  Similarly his powerplay production based on his meager ice time suggests that he may be deserving of more, but due to the tiny sample size it is difficult to say this with certainty.

This discussion of production based on minutes played leads me to my next discussion point...

Time on Ice

A very important function of defenseman (that is often overlooked by people who love looking at 'box score stats') is that of "eating minutes".  Eating minutes refers to the ability of top defenseman to play a lot of minutes.  Generally if a defenseman can play 20-22 minutes with good results he is playing top 4 minutes.  If he can play above 22 minutes its a lot (think top 2) and above 24:30 and its pretty damn elite (17 did it last NHL season).  So where does Gunnarson come in?  In his first NHL season Gunnarson played 21:26 good for a tie for 76th-80th in the league (along with such terrible defenseman as Eric Brewer, Dererk Morris, Erik Johnson, and Michal Rozsival).  Among rookies he ranked.  Among rookies he ranked 3rd behind only Jamie McBain, who played 13 games, and the Calder Trophy winner Tyler Myers.

After a great first season in the blue and white, many were excited for his second year.  However, in his second year the coaching staff lost faith in him.  From the beginning they significantly cut back his minutes.  After playing over 21 minutes per night and being the leafs number 4 D-man in his rookie season, Ron Wilson and co cut him back to 17:53, 17:15, 14:52, and 6:13 in his first 4 games of 2010-2011.  As well his league average TOI/GP dropped to 18:14 or 144th in the league.

This may suggest to you that he was a hot rookie who is not capable of handling tough minutes.  I however disagree and have some evidence for you.  The Leafs made two big trades last February, first trading minute-munching Beauchemin, and then trading long-time leaf Tomas Kaberle.  After the Kaberle trade Gunnarson's minutes jumped to 24:27 per night.  Had he played those kind of minutes all year he would have been 18th in the league.  This was during the peak of Leafs success, so it is not as if he was playing these minutes while the Leafs were losing.  What this shows to me is that Gunnarson is capable of playing a lot of minutes and should be given that chance. (Note there is a misconception that Aulie was playing an absolute ton of minutes after the two trades.  In the same time period Aulie was playing 21:17 or over 3 minutes less than Gunnarson).

But wait you may ask: "Was he just seeing paper thin minutes?"  Well I am glad you asked, hypothetical question asker I am using as a writing crutch.  Lets see:

Advanced Stats (with some basic ones mixed in)

Description of some advanced stats in case you don't know them (skip it if you feel comfortable with them).
CorsiON: I like to describe corsi as the +/- for shots.  Basically it takes shots for and against while a player is on the ice and then adjusts it slightly with the players time on ice.  By looking at shots instead of goals the measurement is able to increase sample size and remove goalie effects.  On the other hand it assumes all shots are equal (whether this is a problem or not is a hot topic for debate).  Regardless it is considered a measure of team wide possession while the player is on the ice.
SA/60: Shots against per 60 minutes
GA/60: This is the goals against your team while you are on the ice per 60 minutes.
CorsiQoC: How good your opponents are as measured by Corsi
CorsiQoT: The same but for teammates.

Please note the following are for even strength minutes:

Season

CorsiON

CorsiQoT (first is the best teammate)

CorsiQoC (First is the hardest competition)

GA/60

SA/60

2009/2010

.-2.98 (7/8) (139/216)

5.289 (3/8) (32/216)

-0.196 (4/8) (138/216)

2.45 (7/8) (118/216)

26.2 (5/8) (147/216)

2010/2011

.-4.78 (3/6) (162/215)

.-5.323 (4/6) (182/215)

0.477 (5/6) (54/215)

2.55 (4/6) (71/215)

28.1 (6/6) (78/215)

*First bracket is rank among leafs defenseman and second is rank among league wide defenseman. (Defenseman had to play 30+ games in the season)
**Remember these are full season stats so the second year gets highly blurred because of the first 44 GP where he was used as depth, vs the last 24 where he was playing top minutes

To be honest I don't see a particularly clear picture here.  But I'll try to break it down anyway:

  • As a rookie he appeared to me to be playing a lot of minutes that were fairly tough, matching up with good teammates; while in second year he lost the respect of the coaching staff (at least in the beginning).  The stats appear to back *part* up.  
  • In his first year he had a good CorsiQofT and in his second year it dropped, so it looks like he was playing with worse teammates (makes sense in a depth role).
  • His quality of competition got significantly harder in his second year.  Its a little confusing though because due to the Leafs atrocious possession numbers last year the whole team seemed to play a high CorsiQoC.
  • Further his CorsiON does not look very good relative to the league but looks okay relative to the team.  He was near the bottom in his rookie year (7/8 only ahead of Finger), but in his second year he made it to the top half of the team.
  • To look at a bit of a simpler stat I looked simply at SA/60 and Gunnar seemed to do pretty well here.  (Remember for this stat that having a higher ranking is BETTER because you are letting less shots against).  He did pretty good in the first year by being in the better half of the team, and was the BEST on the team in his second year.  So he is doing a good job of suppressing shots against.
  • Finally another simple measurement: GA.  While I don't love this stat for a D-man (its too reliant on the quality of goaltender behind the defender) it should be stated.  He does pretty well in this stat being on the better half of the team overall in both years (second best in his first year).

So overall I get the following picture from these stats (I am happy to hear other interpretations): he played lots of minutes with a good quality of teammate against relatively easy competition with pretty good results (okay Corsi, but good GA and SA).  In his second year his minutes dropped, his teammates got worse, his competition got harder, but his results seemed to stay more or less the same (solid but not spectacular).  His Corsi (relative to his team) improved a little and he was middle of the pack in the team.  Similarly his SA and GA were pretty good (SA was best on the team).

Overall I would argue that Gunnar is a good offensive defenseman and if given the opportunity (minutes both ES and PP) I think he could (edited to be clearer) produce offensively at a level equal to a number 2 defenseman (top 60 in points by a defenseman).  He has shown in both his rookie season and the last 24 games of last season that he can play a lot of minutes and deserves that opportunity.  Further he hasn't been playing joke minutes nor been carried by his teammates.

Finally (believe it or not) I do watch the game and I think he has looked in this preseason.  He skates well, has solid positioning, and makes smart passes.  I think his relatively conservative, yet offensive style of play would compliment Phaneuf's aggressive, big hitting offensive game, by both supporting his offense with his smooth passing and supporting him in his big hits by staying in position for when Phaneuf ends up out of it (by hits or shots).

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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I agree with these sentiments

generally speaking, and there’s two posts I’ve put up that paint a very similar picture. If Gunnarsson gets pushed out by the Leafs management they’ll end up with egg on their faces in a couple of years. He could easily be one of the top 2 or 3 of the Leafs current D men all around, and if he ends up going somewhere else and producing 35+ points and playing 23 minutes a night, they’ll look stupid.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post, definite seems to be one of the more in depth looks at Gunner I’ve seen. I do feel he is severely underrated and should be a no contest member of this roster. The only thing I disagree with is the #2 or top 60 point in your assessment. Gunner seems to me to be a 4-6 kind of player who is a good option on a 2nd pp unit. I feel that he has not yet shown himself to be a top pair guy. As he hasn’t shown the offensive abilities of one (around 35-45 points) or the defensive numbers. I would love to be proven wrong though! Another great analysis BCapp.

No Good Komi Scum

by SPERO on Sep 26, 2011 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks man

I probably wasn’t clear. I don’t mean I think he is actually a number 2 defenseman. I think that he can produce offensively at the level fo a number 2 defenseman. Or in other words the offensive side of his game could be that good. I don’t think his all around game is # 2 quality more like second pairing.

If you look at the numbers I provide in the charts he has produced as a #3 defenseman from a points per game perspective, but his points/minute (at ES) has been top 40. I am suggesting that if his minutes increase (both ES and PP), even if his points/minutes decrease some he should still be able to move from the 78th-86th that he is at now to top 60. That would make him a “number 2” defenseman offensively. I just wrote it in a confusing matter.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have now adjusted it to be clearer (I hope).

In regards to this assertion:

As he hasn’t shown the offensive abilities of [a number 2 offensive defenseman] (around 35-45 points)

That would actually be a poor number 1 defenseman.

35-45 points would have placed you:
2009/2010 14th-36th
2010/2011 17th-37th

So to be 31st-60th in the last 2 years a defenseman scored between
2009/2010 27-37 points
2010/201126-37 points

Personally though I would rather compare him to PPG production:

So if you look at 31st-60th PPG by a defenseman (with minimum 30 GP) you get:
2009/2010 0.38 to 0.50
2010/2011 0.37 to 0.51

For reference sake if they all played 82 GP this would be
2009/2010 31-41 pts
2010/2011 30-42 pts.

Thats pretty consistent. Gunnarson has produced at 0.32 thus far over his career. However he has done that with low ice time AND he is about to hit the age where players generally hit their prime (25 and 3rd-4th season). I think with the increase minutes he can bump up that extra 0.1 PPG to be at ~ 0.42 PPG (if your curious thats a 34 point season).

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s a good way to look at it. I need to start using PPG percentage more so in my vocab lol. I really hope Gunner can get a 30 point season or so to quiet some of his critics. Thanks for clarifying BTW

No Good Komi Scum

by SPERO on Sep 26, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

My pleasure

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent Post

From everything I’ve seen, and most of the more insightful things I’ve read, Keith Aulie is not ready to put in serious minutes next to Phaneuf for a full season. Whether Aulie should be sent down or see bottom pairing minutes alongside Franson is another debate but at this point, with the intention of putting the best, most consistent defensive pairings forward, Wilson needs to get Gunner and Phaneuf developing some more chemistry. On paper I believe their skill sets complement each other very nicely. Perhaps the general consensus going into preseason of Phaneuf-Aulie on the top unit was a little unrealistic for the very young defender.

And the Masters of the Universe...

by Kule-man on Sep 26, 2011 3:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Huh... I thought he was better than that.

/obviousjoke

Good work. You stats monkeys make my head spin (and I mean that in a completely positive way and do not want to start any arguments about not liking stats or say they are not part of fandom, they just aren’t my cup of tea… and I’m a scientist, go figure).

by Learn2Leaf on Sep 26, 2011 4:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Took me a while to get used to them, but I think the first 2/3 of the article should be pretty straightforward.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it’s good work, I get it. I just question my ability to go out, grab all these numbers and put them together into an article about sport.

by Learn2Leaf on Sep 26, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

By which I mean a good article… I think I could write:

He score more goal, YARRR he good!

by Learn2Leaf on Sep 26, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aye matey!

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the post

but don’t all those comments you quoted ignore the whole LD/RD thing? Given that Franson and Komisarek are RD, is Gunnarson really in competition with them?

I mean this as a legitimate question – do NHL d-men flips sides much? The quotes from Franson after he played LD against Philly led me to believe not, but I really don’t have much else to base that on.

by Lemonstyx on Sep 26, 2011 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree fully. The LD’s still with the team are Aulie, Gardiner, Gunnarson, Lashoff, Liles. I would list them as Liles, Gunnar, Aulie, Gardiner, Lashoff.

The only thing I can say is that there is a tendency to say “fuck you if you want to play, you play where I tell you” to the bottom pairing defenseman. ie if you’re at the bottom of the depth chart you play where you’re told or you don’t play. I think its silly but it happens sometimes.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

This begs the question of how much of a drop-off in performance you get when a player switches sides. Do players figure it out in a few games, or do they just end up being worse on their wrong side (which could still better than the next best option)?

Given that the Franson experiment went quite poorly, it would seem Gunnarson is in competition only with the players you mention, and that Liles, Gunnarson and Aulie seem most likely to start the season in the top 6, with Gardiner waiting in the wings.

by Lemonstyx on Sep 26, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would like to see

Gunnar-Phaneuf
Liles-Schenn
Aulie-Franson

It gives each line some physicality, defensive awareness, and offense. As well it provides Schenn with a similar partner to who he is used to (Liles is similar to Kaberle), shelters our young d-men and I think Gunnar makes a good match for Phaneuf (as explained above.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep this is what I want to see. Is Komi RD or LD?

by TheCeej on Sep 26, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Komi is an RD.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to admit that I’m tempted with the thought of putting Gardiner in with Franson as the last pairing. Give them sheltered minutes, and see what they can do.

by Lemonstyx on Sep 26, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

He can do no worse than the stiff we traded for him.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Sep 26, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait do you mean Beauch or Lebda? Because those are two very different beasts.

And the Masters of the Universe...

by Kule-man on Sep 26, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s obvious the comment refers to Lebda.

History. Leafs. Drawing. In no particular order!
My Portfolio

by CanadianMaple09 on Sep 26, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Correct since we are talking about the third pairing.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Sep 26, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was my first reaction, it’s just Gardiner the more surprising member of your 3rd pairing, only considering perceived popular opinion. I inferred that to potentially denote your reference to the stiff we dealt (Beauchemin) to obtain Gardiner.

And the Masters of the Universe...

by Kule-man on Sep 27, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s wise to send Gardiner down to the Marlies. Let him dominate, work out some kinks. I know he’s looked good in camp, but we have a log-jam on D as it is and Gardiner seeing some AHL action with big minutes is not going to hurt his game.

by JohnerstonRex on Sep 26, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. If he’s tearing up the AHL by January, combined with injury to the Leafs, he can always be called up…and if someone like Aulie is struggling, I’d venture to say permanently.

Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)

by FiftyMissionCap on Sep 26, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

even if he spends the whole year in the AHL (barring injury or general crappyness). We don’t want to push him too hard, and playing with a number of interesting prospects who may be be on the big team down the line won’t hurt either. The longer they play together the better the chemistry between them will be in the future.

by JohnerstonRex on Sep 26, 2011 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome work. I enjoyed it!

More like one in a million, So you're telling me there's a chance - Optimism

by cojo417 on Sep 26, 2011 9:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Based on what's been said

about Wilson picking the team, and him being in a lame duck year that basically is make or break based on how the team fares, I have little illusion about the fact that he’s going with a more veteran lineup.

He is quoted as saying “Aulie is in a battle for his job” and we know he’s already asked Franson to switch sides as an experiment in this pre-season. They’re trying out every option before they get going, but we’ll see something closer to the set pairings in the final 3 games.

Read the following from Wilson and I think you’ll get the picture that he’s not following the media’s logic of Aulie being guaranteed alongside Phaneuf, or Gunnarsson being in a bottom pairing role:

"He’s in a fight," Wilson said [in reference to Aulie]. "He’s got to keep himself grounded, work hard every day and don’t take anything for granted. It’s very competitive right now. Last year at the end, we weren’t very deep on the back end and he was able to get in there and play well.

Aulie skated mostly with captain Dion Phaneuf last year, but now Liles has been paired with Phaneuf through camp. Aulie and Franson have mostly been a pair in practice. – K McGrann
Aulie and Cody Franson formed what looked to be the third defensive pairing Monday. Luke Schenn and John-Michael Liles, and Dion Phaneuf and Carl Gunnarsson appeared to be the top two pairs, with Mike Komisarek, Jake Gardiner and Matt Lashoff as the three extras. – M. Traikos

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:02 PM EDT reply actions  

McGrann

listed Phaneuf + Liles, while Traikos had Phaneuf + Gunnarsson… with Schenn + Liles or Schenn + Gunnarsson being the other option… the only one of those pairs that’s happened before regularly is Gunnarsson + Schenn so maybe Wilson is thinking familiarity will help?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

The way I see it is there are 3 locks: Phaneuf, Schenn, Liles. The other 5 are competing for 3 starting jobs, one bench spot. One of Gardiner or Aulie goes down to the AHL, the other needs a starting job for development and will be in the lineup. That leaves Komisarek, Franson and Gunnar fighting to not be the healthy scratch with Komi the clear favourite to suit up especially if Gardiner doesn’t make the team. If Gardiner does make the team he may be paired with Komi and Jake would replace the lost offense from Gunnar or Franson serving as the scratch. Of course Burke could surprise and send down both Aulie and Gardiner in which case Lashoff would be the healthy scratch. I wouldn’t bet on that one though. So that’s my take on it in a nutshell. Pretty sure Gunnar will be in the top 6 but anythings possible.

by scott tubbesing on Sep 26, 2011 10:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Gardiner

won’t make the team. Aulie is more necessary for D than Gardiner is for O…. and only those two don’t have to clear waivers.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just pointing out that “Gunnarsson” is spelled wrong throughout (there’s supposed to be two “s’s”. Enjoyed it though despite not fully understanding all of these fancy stats.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:07 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think the stats get fancy until near the end. And damn crazy name!

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

the bracket rankings

confuse things a bit… I’m not sure I’d lay it out that way… might be more beneficial to just show the Leafs comparables, and the NHL comparables… I find that helps people make the mental connection more (personally).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but as soon as I see mathematical stats I think “this is the kind of crap I hated in high school” and don’t want to do any mental work to understand them. I don’t generally “get” stuff like this unless I know the theory behind it (which is how I came to understand after years of not getting them corsi and fenwick).

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

But the numbers on their own still don’t mean anything to me.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

they're normalized for 60 minutes of ES play

it’s like a skater’s +/- for shot attempts for every 60 minutes of ice time they see (typically at ES).

Positive = more shots for their team than against
Negative = more shots against their team than for them

the Corsi REL part is just in comparison to their team average, so if their team sucks, but they aren’t that bad, they’ll look better… if their team is great and they are being carried by their mates, they’ll look worse.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I get what they mean, and why they are used, but when I just see the numbers I don’t want to have to mentally make those connections. I just read the parts where you guys explain what they mean in English.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

This confuses me

at what point will you internalize what the numbers mean without the explanation part?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like if I tell you

Nik Lidstrom is +26, you don’t need me to explain in English that he was on the ice for 26 more goals at ES or SH than he allowed… do you?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, because +/- numbers are commonplace and I never had to “learn” what they meant. It’s like the difference between learning to speak as a baby and learning to speak a new language as an adult.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

no see

that’s just inaccurate… at some point someone had to explain (or you had to read) what +/- means… the fact that it is TEAM goals for – TEAM goals against while the player is on the ice and only at ES or SH is pretty damn far from intuitive.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

the fact

that people are comfortable with +/- I’ll grant you, but I think a better analogy is learning to speak a language when surrounded by those who already speak it versus learning to speak a new language from a smaller group of people that don’t surround you in the same way.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the problem is that one is normalized. Plus/minus is a very simple statistic. Plus 1 for goals for, minus 1 for goals against.

The other could be a simple statistic if it was just +1 for shots for, and -1 for shots against. Instead it is that and then normalized which confuses the face value of it.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah except

the numbers would be freaking huge for a whole season. Like for some guys it’d be in the hundreds or thousands… the scale for comparison just wouldn’t flow logically and the numbers would swing way too wildly game to game.

Guy goes on cold streak and his Corsi plunges 300 points in a month? that’d be rough.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

the normalization is what lets you compare players… it accounts for ice time… obviously.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

For sure

But it makes it harder to understand. Its just not an intuitive number. I still have no idea what the numbers ever mean without looking at players who do similarly.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's what you can expect them to do shots wise

over the course of 60 minutes of ice time (which is arbitrary considering guys play like 14 minutes of ES hockey per game at the higher end).

Think of it as a running 4 game average I guess?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 27, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but I have trouble with the range. Its just confusing because the number isn’t as intuitive. Thats all. Maybe if it ran from like -100 to 100 or something I could understand it better…. I dunno

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 27, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

But it’s not like that, I don’t remember ever “learning” +/-, it’s something I’ve always known as long as I’ve played and watched hockey. I became naturalized to it as I became naturalized to hockey. I never had to think about it, never had to ask someone specifically what it was, never had to wonder why it was supposedly useful.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

unfortunately

it’s not particularly useful… but you probably understand that too to some extent.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is why I said “supposedly” useful.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

~

I laugh when I talk to fans of “Other” sports who dont understand the rules and stats of the game. I just followed Hockey Growing up in Philly ever since I was a tyke. It was my Dad’s second favorite and still is his second favorite sport behind baseball but I just grew to love Hockey. I guess its the Canadian blood in my veins from my mother’s side of the family. but .. I get you.. I knew the rules as a kid growing up like GAA and PK and PPG and Shorthanded and +/- and Two Line Pass and Icing and stuff…

I just laugh to myself when guys dont get it. Once a guy asked me … What is a Two line pass .. and other person once asked me .. What is it when you slash someone .. I was like …. .“Really?”

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! ~ ~ ~ Lori Wilson Gray ~ ~ April 07th 1967 - May 27th 2011 ~ May you rest in Peace ~ I love you and miss you big Sis ! I cant believe at 44 yrs of age .. you went to sleep and never woke up. I promise to take care of Matt and Emily for you. With Love, your baby Brother.

by FLYERROB on Sep 26, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

What is slashing?

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I thought of that too!

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah he got a Rec’d for that because thats EXACTLY what I thought when the Guy asked me … I thought of this and I copied it with a stick and did my best impression ..


“You go to the box and you know.. you feel shame.”

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! ~ ~ ~ Lori Wilson Gray ~ ~ April 07th 1967 - May 27th 2011 ~ May you rest in Peace ~ I love you and miss you big Sis ! I cant believe at 44 yrs of age .. you went to sleep and never woke up. I promise to take care of Matt and Emily for you. With Love, your baby Brother.

by FLYERROB on Sep 26, 2011 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

BCapp…

You forgot to mention in the article above that you did that the name Gunnarson .. .It just sounds so BAD ASS For a D man who shoots and fires from the blue line sounds better than Lilja or Lebda.. Oooooohhhhhhhh SNAP !!!

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! ~ ~ ~ Lori Wilson Gray ~ ~ April 07th 1967 - May 27th 2011 ~ May you rest in Peace ~ I love you and miss you big Sis ! I cant believe at 44 yrs of age .. you went to sleep and never woke up. I promise to take care of Matt and Emily for you. With Love, your baby Brother.

by FLYERROB on Sep 26, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Totally Rec’d

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! ~ ~ ~ Lori Wilson Gray ~ ~ April 07th 1967 - May 27th 2011 ~ May you rest in Peace ~ I love you and miss you big Sis ! I cant believe at 44 yrs of age .. you went to sleep and never woke up. I promise to take care of Matt and Emily for you. With Love, your baby Brother.

by FLYERROB on Sep 26, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its the same for me

+5.2 Corsi or a 0.22 QualTeam means nothing to me without comparables.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you're finding this posting interesting

you should look at my other posts on Gunnarsson

1. Keith Aulie vs. Carl Gunnarsson

2. Carl Gunnarsson – The Cost of The Future

I strongly suggest people recognize that Gunnarsson is comparable to Jason Demers, Matt Carle, or Andrej Meszaros and is easily a candidate for a top 4 role. Aulie and Gardiner are pretty far from that at this point in their careers… they’ll get there eventually, but they aren’t there yet.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:11 PM EDT reply actions  

And

3. Carl Gunnarsson versus The Moleman.

Not liking the Habs since 1959.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, Burtch hasn’t taken on the Moleman yet.

No longer providing fresh fish products for the whole family.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably because he knows The Moleman regularly faces an incredibly high CorsiQoC, and yet still (somehow) manages to move the puck up the ice.

No longer providing fresh fish products for the whole family.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

BE AFRAID BURTCH!

And as we all know, he’s got an incredibly quick stick.

No longer providing fresh fish products for the whole family.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the record....

would just like to note that I liked your pieces, Steve.

And I should probably also apologize for my friend Moleman.

He likes to just POP UP like that, and scare people.

Might wanna keep your lid on form here on out, just in case.

No longer providing fresh fish products for the whole family.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll

keep that in mind… although wearing a lid when he comes up from underneath doesn’t seem logical to me.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point taken.

Might wanna wear chaps, then.

No longer providing fresh fish products for the whole family.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

chaps

do nothing to protect my colon.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mole Man fears no colon

No longer providing fresh fish products for the whole family.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please .. I don’t want to see What Gary Bettman looks like in his S&M suite. What he does behind close doors with himself, another woman, a capybara, a Chinchilla, and a can of Valvoline 10W40 Motor Oil should stay behind closed doors.

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! ~ ~ ~ Lori Wilson Gray ~ ~ April 07th 1967 - May 27th 2011 ~ May you rest in Peace ~ I love you and miss you big Sis ! I cant believe at 44 yrs of age .. you went to sleep and never woke up. I promise to take care of Matt and Emily for you. With Love, your baby Brother.

by FLYERROB on Sep 26, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

3. Carl Gunnarsson III – The Search for Spunk

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for this.

I’ve always liked Gunnarson. I think he really got some unfair treatment last year by the coaching staff. They kept complaining about his play, but I didn’t really see the deficiencies they were talking about, most of the time.

Steve’s right that the organization is going to look pretty foolish in a few years after they inevitably (but hopefully not) push the guy out the door and he succeeds somewhere else.

What is life without hope?

by danishmarshmallow on Sep 26, 2011 10:33 PM EDT reply actions  

We definitely looked stupid after Tlusty was treated unfairly by the coaching staff, was pushed out the door, and succeeded elsewhere.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

hm

Alex Steen comes to mind a bit more obviously.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

forcing the kid

to play the wing… trying to pigeonhole him as a checking forward… not the best usage really.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was being facetious with the Tlusty reference, as in many people argued he was “treated unfairly” and that we shouldn’t have let him go, but then he ended up not being that great anyways.

I’m not saying this is the case with Gunnarsson, I like Gunnarsson, but don’t think it’s necessarily fair to assume that a player who we get rid of will definitely succeed somewhere else. It’s just that we always hear about cases where this happens, but rarely hear about ones where it doesn’t.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Just not sure that response was appropriately directed towards my comment, or towards me – seeing as how I’ve never been an advocate for Tlusty.

What is life without hope?

by danishmarshmallow on Sep 26, 2011 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

It just seemed like you were implying that, because it’s happened in the past, we will “inevitably” push Gunnar out the door, and because it’s happened in the past, he will succeed elsewhere.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

comparing

Tlusty, who never played a significant role in the NHL with the Leafs, and largely got noticed because of his point per game status in the AHL to Carl Gunnarsson, who has played top 4 minutes at various points over the past 2 seasons and done so quite well, strikes me as a bit strange… facetious or not.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not comparing them, I’m comparing what people were saying when we let Tlusty go, i.e. “he will end up being amazing now, he didn’t get a fair shot from the coaches, etc” to what danishmarshmallow just said about Gunnarsson.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Context

The ‘news’ that the Leafs are kicking the tires on a trade with him involved.

He’s already a serviceable 3/4/5 D-man now. Thus, the comment. There’s really no comparison with Tlusty here.

What is life without hope?

by danishmarshmallow on Sep 26, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I get that, I wasn’t being critical or saying you were wrong, just more pointing out how people said similar things about Tlusty when he was traded and that worked out okay.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

understood.

What is life without hope?

by danishmarshmallow on Sep 26, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m also teaching a class now, and am not fully involved in analyzing conversation.

What is life without hope?

by danishmarshmallow on Sep 26, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Makes sense, I’m not trying to be a dick or anything. In truth, I am preparing for a litigation competition I’m in tomorrow and coming on here to argue with Burtch as part of my preparation. It’s kind of like procrastination with a purpose.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

here's the thing

Gunnarsson’s numbers are comparable to other players that ARE successful somewhere else…. and yet we argue that he’s in a fight for the 6th or 7th D man spot with regularity (we = MSM + fans vs. bloggers).

He’s got top 4 numbers, but he can’t get a fair shake, and it doesn’t make sense.

I’m not saying he will turn out because he has potential, I’m saying he will turn out because he’s already playing at that level.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah he’s good, but I know a lot of people who don’t think so because of the MSM opinion of him. The problem is that he’s obviously a product of a logjam in Toronto where we have 3 guys who could be potential top 4 defenders, with only one spot for the three of them. If we move him I think it would be more because we could get a better return for him than for one of the others and could bring in a player who could fill a hole that needs filling.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

I just find the whole viewpoint in Toronto so skewed because so many media pundits seem generally clueless.

It’s funny how many articles in the past 2 days have shifted from Aulie + Phaneuf is a lock to Aulie is in a battle and Gunnarsson is now a top 4 D man… all on the basis of 1 damn practice where Aulie wasn’t in the top 4.

Like if ANY of them had watched the Leafs or seen the stats from the past 2 years this would make perfect sense, but do they think about it beyond a few dramatized exaggerations about how the young kid that Burke got in a trade is making good? no…

Gunnarsson flies beneath the radar these days because he was drafted late by JFJ, he was signed late after playing some more in Sweden post draft, and he had to actually play in the AHL after the Leafs signed him, and nobody really knew much about him coming in… not that highly touted, and nobody “Demanded him” as part of a trade… i.e. there’s no real story there.

I think the most I read about him in the MSM prior to this year was in relation to how he’s a friend of the “Monster” … another potential bust that has gotten way more press than he deserves because he was highly sought after.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

the multiple

comments about him being “late starting” have absolutely zero foundation in reality, and yet I’ve had to see multiple sources mention it like it’s factual.

The whole effort is bizarre in the extreme.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with all of this.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

God that is driving me insane too.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

yanno what'd be nice

if a reporter actually asked someone who KNOWS about this stuff what they think… or perhaps interviewed Gunnarsson, or his coaches, and asked what THEY Think… yanno rather than spouting off what they’ve read OTHER writers say about it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you mean, actually work?

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Sep 26, 2011 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

For me I just think he is capable of producing more than is apparent on the surface and I fear that his trade value is closer to that “surface”.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is definitely true, at least from what we can see. Who knows, maybe Burke can get other GMs to admit that they’re smarter than the MSM in evaluating talent and that Gunnarsson is actually worth what he’s worth.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bozak + Gunnar reminds me an unfortunate amount of Steen + Coliacavo

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

so what you're saying is

don’t let Cliff Fletcher near the phone? DONE….

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

Just watching a newly-relaxed Bozak in pre-season would seem to show that perhaps he has more potential than he expressed much of last year. I think it’s far too early with players like he and Gunnar, even the Monster. Unless other teams have gone head over heels for them, or we know for certain they’re write-offs, why show them the door?

No longer providing fresh fish products for the whole family.

by not norm ullman on Sep 26, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly I am not against trading them (as everyone has the right price). I just don’t like the idea of trading them to open up room in the roster, or because of some logjam. If you get your price thats fine.

My other problem (as I have stated) is I doubt Gunnar’s trade value will live up to my perceived value. Time will tell if my perceived value is accurate though (in his production in future years)

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 26, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Somewhat, but the reasons we would be trading them would be totally different. Steen was a highly touted player who really never “met his potential” in Toronto, Coli was a splodey bones. They needed a change of scenery to succeed and we gave them that in what appeared to be a trade for a skilled offensive producer.

In this case it’s just a numbers game.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Umm

Bozak was highly touted and people are pretty certain he’s not going to succeed after last year = Steen

Gunnarsson has had some injury issues and has been stuck behind veteran D despite obvious poise and promise = Colaiacovo… I don’t see a huge distinction.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 26, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well obviously you are looking for similarities while I am looking for differences.

Steen was a first round pick who we drafted and developed and had high expectations for. He played with the Leafs for 3 and a half seasons and never met those expectations.

Coliacovo was also a first round pick who we drafted and developed and had high expectations for. He played for the Leafs for several seasons but was injured more than he was healthy.

Neither Gunnarsson or Bozak were a high draft pick. Bozak has been here for a season and a half and, though he didn’t have as good a season last year in terms of ppg, wasn’t a total bust and was healthy. He is well suited to a 3rd line role, which is kind of what people have realized is probably where he will play. Gunnarsson was a late draft pick and has exceeded expectations.

The reasons for trading these players would be nothing at all similar to the reasons for trading Steen and Coliacovo.

I get the comparison, a forward and D-man at similar ages and stages in their career, but the motivation for the trade and the player’s development history are totally different.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 26, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personally

and I know this is just my perspective… I think once the draft is done prospects shouldn’t be validated purely on draft ranking. Obviously higher round draft picks are more likely to make the NHL than later round pick ups, but once a guy is in his mid 20’s and already in the NHL I don’t think his NHL draft ranking should bear a lot of weight on what he’s worth in a trade.

Following that logic would lead to the conclusion that players like Marty St. Louis are less valuable than they really are *cough*MVP*cough*.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Sep 27, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing I said had anything to do with “value”, just that the circumstances surrounding these players and reasons for trading them are totally different.

Flugenweb, space code, twit zone, ass mode, check ze tweets.

by Shield on Sep 27, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

It was still a stupid trade from a return perspective. We should’ve gotten picks or a prospect for it….did they even watch Stempniak play?

by Goosemonster on Sep 27, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

BCapp ~ NOW THATS WHAT I WANT TO SEE !!!
or take it to the Flyers in their own arena.

THATS THE RIVALRY I AM TALKING ABOUT !!

I am telling you…. Maple Leafs will make the Playoffs this year !!!!

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! ~ ~ ~ Lori Wilson Gray ~ ~ April 07th 1967 - May 27th 2011 ~ May you rest in Peace ~ I love you and miss you big Sis ! I cant believe at 44 yrs of age .. you went to sleep and never woke up. I promise to take care of Matt and Emily for you. With Love, your baby Brother.

by FLYERROB on Sep 26, 2011 10:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I wish I had your optimism, man, and I’m a Leafs fan. I’m guessing anywhere from 7-10, but we’ll see. I think they’ve certainly improved enough to leapfrog Carolina for 9th (assuming no one below them leapfrogs them), but the big question is who in the top 8 they could be better than.

My money would be on Montreal if anyone; maybe the Rangers if Richards really hits the skids. But, I think every game against the Habs is going to be extremely important this year. Those wins could be what vaults the Leafs into 8th.

Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)

by FiftyMissionCap on Sep 26, 2011 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s only pre-season but their D has looked really atrocious. That plus a drop to .910-.915 from Price and they are in serious, serious trouble. NJD style.

by Goosemonster on Sep 27, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

just the name Gunnarson ....

Sounds like a D Man who can fire bombs from the blue line.

Picture this play by play….

from Kadri, to Kessel, back to Phanuef .. over to Gunnarson .. HE FIRES !! HE SCORRRRRREEEESSSSSSSS !!! What a Bomb from Gunnarson past Thomas’ glove side to put the Maple Leafs up over the Bruins 5-3 !!!!

FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! ~ ~ ~ Lori Wilson Gray ~ ~ April 07th 1967 - May 27th 2011 ~ May you rest in Peace ~ I love you and miss you big Sis ! I cant believe at 44 yrs of age .. you went to sleep and never woke up. I promise to take care of Matt and Emily for you. With Love, your baby Brother.

by FLYERROB on Sep 26, 2011 10:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Sounds like something I wouldn’t mind hearing a few times, doubt the Leafs will have as much success against Thomas this year but we can always hope

P.S. Blink 182 – Neighborhoods time!!!!!

Sometimes it seems this cycle never ends, we slide from top to bottom then we turn and climb again.
Stoik_Leafs Twitter

by Chris Stoikoff on Sep 26, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Also, I actually just posted a blog covering this topic, though in less detail that you did:

As for who will be around, I’m among the many who believe Carl Gunnarsson is greatly underrated and ready for bigger minutes. I also think Keith Aulie, while looking decent with Phaneuf, could benefit from a more sheltered role.

Full post here.

Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)

by FiftyMissionCap on Sep 26, 2011 11:40 PM EDT reply actions  

The post was great and was laid out very well but the one thing I’d like to point out is that a list of the 120 top-4 defensemen in the NHL isn’t simply the list of the top 120 point per game or point per minute D leaders. There are guys in there who don’t get many points per game or minute who are “shutdown” guys like Luke Schenn, Robyn Regehr, etc. With that said I think this lends credence to the argument that Gunnarsson is a top-4 guy.

by scott tubbesing on Sep 27, 2011 12:42 AM EDT reply actions  

While minutes is by no means a perfect measure, it is decent for judging whether a defenseman can play top 4 (minutes...)

Off the top of my head here is a list of “shutdown guys”:

Schenn (52nd in TOI)
Regehr (73rd in TOI)
Brad Stuart (71st in TOI)
Volchenkov (149th in TOI) (but this was his lowest time on ice of the last 5 years. First time under 20 minutes since 2005-2006)
Michalek (65th in TOI)
Orpik (84th in TOI)
Willie Mitchell (66th in TOI)
Hamhuis (43rd in TOI)

Hamhuis had the most with 22:40 and besides Volchenkov, Orpik had the lowest with 20:51. It makes a decent (but far from perfect) measure.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Sep 27, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

got to the party late, but loved your analysis great article.

As it turned out there was also some pretty good foreshaowing of defensive pairings in the comments.

I have always liked Gunnar’s game and never understood why he hasn’t receieved more ice time.

Bam Bam.- digga digga damm

by Eterrible on Oct 4, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks man.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 4, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

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