Shut Down Defensemen - Part 2
So yesterday I ran down the numbers on a new statistic that's targeted at determining who the best defensive defensemen are in the NHL. I referred to it as the SDI or Shut Down Index, and to briefly summarize it compares a blue liner's Corsi REL QoC, Corsi REL QoT, OZ%, Corsi ON/60, and Penalty Differential to their peers in a given season using the number of standard deviations above or below average in each category (with a 20% weighting on Penalty Differential).
I was pretty happy with the results but there were a few inquisitive minds that seemed to misunderstand the point of the exercise. I am NOT looking to determine who the best all-around defender is in the NHL with this statistic. I am well aware that many top D men will not fare well in these rankings as a result of their higher OZ% and Corsi REL QoT. What I was trying to determine, and this is the key part, is who is doing the best job while carrying a heavy defensive work-load in the NHL.
Today I plan on carrying the work forward a little bit further - in an effort to assess who the best Shut Down D are in the NHL right now, and secondly giving you all a glimpse of how the Toronto Maple Leafs have fared since 2007-08 in this regard.
Season over season there seems to be a fairly high level of variation for some defensemen, and there also seemed to be some pairing effects - likely stemming from how regularly D men play with their partners at even strength. While I think this is important to note, I also think it's interesting to see what happens to players that carry on a high level of impact after switching teams or playing with new partners. With this in mind I give you the following list of the top 25 NHL D men by SDI over the past 4 years that are still playing in the NHL.
*Note that there was a minimum of 3 seasons worth of data for inclusion on the list*
| RK | Player | GP | SDI |
| 1 | Jan Hejda | 269 | 3.074 |
| 2 | Barret Jackman | 255 | 2.693 |
| 3 | Roman Polak | 250 | 2.510 |
| 4 | Dan Hamhuis | 273 | 2.472 |
| 5 | Zdeno Chara | 286 | 2.216 |
| 6 | Marc-Edouard Vlasic | 271 | 2.157 |
| 7 | Jay Bouwmeester | 296 | 2.143 |
| 8 | Anton Volchenkov | 230 | 2.060 |
| 9 | Karl Alzner | 160 | 2.057 |
| 10 | Chris Phillips | 246 | 2.043 |
| 11 | Eric Brewer | 182 | 1.998 |
| 12 | Duncan Keith | 288 | 1.982 |
| 13 | Victor Hedman | 184 | 1.903 |
| 14 | Brent Seabrook | 288 | 1.826 |
| 15 | Stephane Robidas | 274 | 1.757 |
| 16 | Willie Mitchell | 230 | 1.720 |
| 17 | Marc Methot | 243 | 1.681 |
| 18 | Drew Doughty | 283 | 1.635 |
| 19 | Henrik Tallinder | 269 | 1.629 |
| 20 | Keith Ballard | 272 | 1.614 |
| 21 | Tim Gleason | 264 | 1.557 |
| 22 | Marc Staal | 241 | 1.550 |
| 23 | Paul Martin | 192 | 1.531 |
| 24 | Niklas Kronwall | 254 | 1.489 |
| 25 | Kevin Klein | 267 | 1.431 |
Honourable mentions go to Radek Martinek (2.400), PK Subban (2.357), John Carlson (2.220), Mike Lundin (2.159), and Aaron Rome (1.437), who all missed the list due to a lack of enough seasons or games played due to injury, but would have ranked in this group otherwise.
Also worth noting at this point is the caveat regarding pair effects. Dan Girardi of the New York Rangers would rank 30th by this measure over the past four years, with a SDI average of 1.314, which looks stellar. Unfortunately this could possibly be explained by the high level of play of his defensive partners over the past few seasons.
In 2007-08 and 2008-09 when Girardi was playing much easier minutes, his SDI scores were 0.938 and -0.270 largely due to his SDI Sit scores of -0.338 and -1.258. Over the next three seasons his SDI has risen dramatically to +1.065, +2.257, and +2.581. While this indicates some improvement over time in his play, in the two seasons prior to this his defensive Partner was Marc Staal (number 22 on the aforementioned list), who posted SDI scores of +1.128, +2.867, and +3.076 for the 08-09, 09-10, and 10-11 seasons respectively. Far and away better numbers than Girardi.
This season Staal has missed time due to a concussion, but in his place has been another blue chip defensive prospect in Ryan McDonagh, who so far this season has posted an SDI score of +2.815, again well above Girardi's score. So just to summarize this point - Girardi's SDI score has been below that of his primary defensive partner for the past three years by an average of 0.951 points. His numbers are getting closer to theirs, but he's still the 2nd best in his pairing in all of those years. This point is important when considering the value of players such as oh... I don't know... Ryan Suter (average of +0.339) and his pairing with (the younger) Shea Weber (average of +1.183). Keep that in mind Unicorn Hunters.
The last portion of this analysis I wanted to explore is the seasons of Toronto Maple Leafs Defensemen in recent memory, and luckily since we have data dating back to 2007-08 we can do that fairly easily. Here are the Leafs D men over the 2007-2012 span, and their average SDI scores for seasons where they played over 30 games.
*Note for players traded mid-season, the entirety of the given season's data is used due to limitations in the btn data - the GP number is Leafs games only*
| Player | Seasons | GP | SDI Sit Avg | SDI Res Avg | SDI Avg |
| Garnet Exelby | 2009-10 | 51 | 1.453 | 0.168 | 1.620 |
| Dion Phaneuf | 2010-12 | 141 | 0.866 | 0.309 | 1.174 |
| Ian White | 2007-10 | 208 | -0.194 | 1.215 | 1.021 |
| Francois Beauchemin | 2009-11 | 136 | 0.453 | 0.478 | 0.931 |
| Carl Gunnarsson | 2009-12 | 159 | 0.889 | -0.196 | 0.693 |
| Jonas Frogren | 2008-09 | 41 | 0.735 | -0.746 | -0.011 |
| Tomas Kaberle | 2007-11 | 279 | -1.127 | 0.850 | -0.271 |
| John-Michael Liles | 2011-12 | 34 | -0.257 | -0.049 | -0.306 |
| Luke Schenn | 2008-12 | 279 | -0.055 | -0.381 | -0.436 |
| Bryan McCabe | 2007-08 | 54 | -0.414 | -0.048 | -0.462 |
| Jake Gardiner | 2011-12 | 42 | -0.831 | 0.280 | -0.551 |
| Mike Komisarek | 2009-12 | 135 | -0.192 | -0.458 | -0.650 |
| Jeff Finger | 2008-10 | 105 | -0.319 | -0.651 | -0.970 |
| Keith Aulie | 2010-11 | 40 | 1.830 | -2.873 | -1.044 |
| Cody Franson | 2011-12 | 34 | -1.652 | 0.604 | -1.048 |
| Pavel Kubina | 2007-09 | 154 | -1.089 | 0.002 | -1.086 |
| Brett Lebda | 2010-11 | 41 | -0.969 | -0.126 | -1.095 |
| Anton Stralman | 2007-09 | 88 | -1.784 | 0.654 | -1.130 |
| Andy Wozniewski | 2007-08 | 48 | -0.583 | -0.942 | -1.524 |
So I said there were reasons for optimism in Leaf Land when I first presented this statistic yesterday, and frankly looking at the above list I could understand having the opposite feeling. The sad fact that the closest thing the Leafs have had to a shut down defender in the past 5 years is Garnet Exelby is extremely scary. It also explains why we had to give up Ian White and Francois Beauchemin to get players like Dion Phaneuf, Jake Gardiner, and Joffrey Lupul in exchange... they were our top pieces on the blue line.
It also seems fortuitous that we managed to exchange Brett Lebda for a younger Cody Franson (who is an offensive piece not defensive) and Matt Lombardi who helps our forward depth. We also lucked out in moving Tomas Kaberle for futures like Joe Colborne and draft picks when we did, so that trade was extremely well timed.
Realistically what this list shows is that only 6 Leafs blue liners in the past five seasons have been asked to regularly match up versus top opposition primarily in the defensive zone: Exelby, Phaneuf, Beauchemin, Gunnarsson, Frogren, and Aulie. These are basically the only guys the coaches have deemed reliable enough defensively to play in these situations. Luckily 3 of them are currently on the team, unfortunately only 2 of the 3 have played the role succesfully. Keith Aulie has been pretty horribly outmatched so far in his NHL career, and his lack of puck handling skills largely prevent him from being much use in a game focused on maintaining control of the puck.
Dion Phaneuf (0.301) doesn't appear to be in the defensive elite of the NHL over the past 5 years, but his numbers are superior to the likes of Matt Carle (0.257), Scott Hannan (0.235), Kevin Bieksa (0.181), Trevor Daley (0.167), James Wisniewski (0.167), Mattias Ohlund (0.146), Roman Hamrlik (0.126), Dennis Seidenberg (0.110), and Michal Roszival (0.086).
Carl Gunnarsson has been even more impressive in his early career (0.693). His peers over the past few years may be even more surprising. One of his closest comparables in SDI Avg since 2007-08 is Chris Pronger (0.702). He is also ahead of Bryce Salvador (0.656), Alex Goligoski (0.625), Tyler Myers (0.542), Ian White (0.523), Zach Bogosian (0.471), Brett Clark (0.376) and that unicorn people seek - Ryan Suter (0.339).
I hate to say it but this assessment leads me further to the conclusion that it may be a decent time to cut bait on Luke Schenn. He has struggled to play any sort of puck control game, and he may be out of his depth as a shut down style player. Hopefully he turns his game around in the last 30 games of this season and going forwards in his Leafs career.
Please note this is purely an assessment of how a defender deals with defensive assignments, NOT a determination of offensive success. I hope this pre-empts any hate mail that comes my way. Again, any further suggestions or comments are welcome.
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Ian White was not only one of our top pieces on the blue line but also a decent third-line winger and, for a brief time, our number one goalie. I miss that guy.
And now he is excelling in Detroit. It’s amazing how many cast offs or players coming off a down season or two that Detroit picks up and makes into really useful pieces. White. Cleary. Bertuzzi. Mikael Samuelsson a few years ago. Even lesser guys like Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves. Somehow they find useful roles for these guys.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 1, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Playing with Lidstrom probably helps just a little.
The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP
I also write things about stuff over at the Leafs Nation
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Feb 1, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
once lidstrom retires, they are going to have issues
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 1, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing that a Suter or a Weber can’t help resolve though.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 1, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Weber would work
doubt Suter is good enough as a fill in.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
White was also decent on the Sharks, but yeah detroit is good at picking their role players. Helps that they have really good core guys, locked into good contracts.
He played
with Boyle… so yeah that helps also.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Goaltender Save Percentage
How does goaltender save percentage figure in the equation? The Leafs have had bottom of the league save percentage since the lock out.
why would I
include goalie save percentage in a measure that is assessing defensemen? This looks at D. If you want to look up the top 25 goalies then look at SV%.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 1, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Or with less snark
This is an analysis that is looking at shot-based analysis (not goal-based analysis), so it should take out most of the effects of bad goaltending.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
My new goal: To get the nickname Hebrew Hammer for Mike Brown to take off.
If I understand correctly, this analysis is dependent on CORSI (shots for/against), not goals. Save percentage is therefore irrelevant.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Feb 1, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I guess we had better hope that Schenn’s “potential” starts being reached soon. He reminds me a lot of another Luke the Leafs drafted early…
"Wham...Wham...Kabam...Kabam... A double kabam! And it's a double dion!"
Based on the general trend I've observe
It is quite likely he takes 4 more years to hit his defensive stride. Are the Leafs prepared to be that patient with him? He was definitely rushed so his development is there for everyone to see – including all the bumps in the road. Also, limiting his minutes so drastically could be playing havoc with his confidence.
Time will tell if he ever rounds into form.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 1, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
By the time Schenn and much of the defence peaks, the current top 6 forwards are in decline or peaking.
so we should trade him just because his peak is later?
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 1, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
at least
consider it? not saying we should – just might be an issue.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
well if a scenario plays out where trading schenn brings in something that will undoubtedly make the Leafs better in their apparent window, then sure
but trading him for the sake of trading him because we “cant wait for him to peak because it does not jive with our carefully laid plans” just seems silly
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 1, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
in that sense - yes
but if you get a player of comparable value who is closer to peak then I’m not sure why it’s silly?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
no, but the core argument seems to recently be straying from that to “schenn is bad now, and the Leafs cant afford to wait” without context
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 1, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
no I'm not
arguing that – I’m saying if you think they need to make a run within the next 4 years – you might want to move him (or Aulie) for a guy that’s more reliable in the 26-30 range.
If you think it’s further out – and you think they’ll develop – then keep them.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
either way
I don’t see how either one becomes a defensive star in the next 2 years.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
either way
I don’t see how either one becomes a defensive star in the next 2 years.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
it's more possible
for Schenn than Aulie to my eyes frankly – he has better puck skills.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I never meant you specifically, more of a consensus thing than anything.
I would trade aulie in a heartbeat, his absolute ceiling is Hal Gill, Schenn’s is much higher
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 1, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
I pointed it out in the other thread, but you asked for comments so I'll drop it again
I think TOI is a huge part of being a good defender and needs some consideration. Not only is it important in and of itself, but I think it needs to be taken into account when considering Corsi QoC.
Consider players A and B
Player A plays 18 tough ES minutes and 4 softer ES minutes for a total of 22 ES minutes
Player B plays only 18 tough minutes for a total of 18 ES minutes.
I think Player A still had a “difficult defensive workload” (as hard as player B) but his Corsi QoC won’t be as difficult as Player B. I think a TOI analysis may be able to adjust for this.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
My new goal: To get the nickname Hebrew Hammer for Mike Brown to take off.
every player
on the list averages at least 15 minutes of ES TOI or I excluded them from the analysis.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Ah, what? Garnet “get the fuck off the ice” Exelby was our best defender? The same one that got 10 minutes of ATOI over his 51 games? And who couldn’t get an NHL contract after he left? Are you sure there isn’t some limitation of the data that might have him ranked too highly?
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
I too was wondering about this one. It seems to be quite the case of “who do you believe? Your data or your own lying eyes?”
I would say that ice time should be taken into account as well. A Dman who can play effectively for 25 minutes a night is far better than one who can play 15. Also having guys who only played 50ish games up there may throw things off.
But, yeah, I don’t like seeing Exelby that high.
well
in this instance you’re all sort of half on – half off the mark.
His ice time was low… for starters.
Secondly – his Corsi REL QoT was amazingly bad… more than 2 full standard deviations below NHL average.
His Corsi REL QoC was actually also low, but it wasn’t as low as the Corsi REL QoT (so that had the biggest impact).
His Corsi ON/60 was actually above average … so his results were good.
His Zone Starts were the toughest on the team that year.
So there’s your explanation… he didn’t play tough comps, but because he was used in such low expectation situations, his performance surprised.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Could be small sample size (even for fenwick/corsi 51GP is not perfect) or it could be protected minutes (i.e. he got bonus minutes in blowout games when other defensemen rested).
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by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 1, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Ratings like this always bring guys like Exelby to the surface. He got limited o-zone starts (least on the team in 2009-2010) but had a positive Corsi On, which is difficult to accomplish. In terms of competition, obviously it was weak. BUT his quality of team was similarly weak : lowest on the team among defenders not named Rosehill. So it looks like he’s benefiting from lots of d-zone starts and weak teammates, which is why I’m skeptical of punishing guys for having good teammate ratings.
Of interest, Exelby also had a very low PDO of 958.
benefiting from lots of d-zone starts and weak teammates
In the context of this rating system that is.
and there we go
should have read down further first – but yes this is the explanation.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Like I've said
this may require modification – I could change the weighting of the team-mate value… but realistically if the corsi effects of opposition and team-mates are remotely comparable… then I’m not sure why.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
i.e.
I don’t see why we’d assume the guys in the other jersey and on the ice are more important than the guys wearing the same jersey.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
ALTHOUGH
thinking this through – there’s 5 of the opponent and 4 of your team-mates – so an 80% weighting might be more fair.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I'll have to explore
the corsi-effects of team-mates vs. opponents to get a realistic adjustment on this.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Ok so
I’m factoring in ES TOI/60 and ratcheting back the Corsi REL QoT to an 80% weighted value, to see the impact it has on the stat.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
you'll
all be pleased to know Exelby promptly drops to 3rd lowest on the Leafs rankings – right above Frogren and Wozniewski.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
helps him
but he’s still way below where most people probably think he is.
He’s ranked 60th in the NHL. Right behind Colin White and ahead of Mike Green.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
compare that to
43rd for Phaneuf, 44th for Ian White, 42nd for Beauchemin.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
basically what I think it shows is
he’s probably being supported by Weber… who is still only 31st on the rankings.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Well yeah...
Any TOI based factor will hit Exelby hard. The question is, is it the right thing to do? First off, you are assuming the coach knows what he is doing which may or may not be the case. But the biggest reason why I don’t like factoring in TOI is you immediately have to throw out and league-wide comparisons. A #4 defenseman playing on a top heavy defense like the Red Wings is likely to get a lot less ice time than a #4 defenseman on a bad defense like Columbus, even if he is a better defenseman.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 1, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
that's a good point... I could weight it also
I agree that it focuses a bit too much on guys who are handed big ice time… but that’s another load to bear.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
or just limit
the analysis to guys who play a minimum ice time.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
although
I disagree on the league wide comparisons – I’m just comparing the index of a number of factors – TOI is compared in the same way – relative to the league average.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
The further apart to members of a pair are
the less likely I think the lower guy is the one pulling his weight.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
two members
even.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
for instance
Keith and Seabrook are 1st and 10th respectively in the NHL – I’d say both are extremely high value.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
similarly
Jackman and Polak are 5th and 11th respectively… again both high value.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Contrast that
with Bouwmeester and Butler, who are 2nd and 52nd respectively? and I think Bouwmeester is the one doing the heavy lifting.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Similarly
Hamhuis (6th) and Bieksa (79th)??? and yeah… I think Bieksa is riding Hamhuis’ coat-tails to bigger pay cheques.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
The Suter-Weber
pairing at 31st and 60th isn’t as big a gap as Hamhuis and Bieksa, but unless the team bringing him in has a solid player to pair Suter with? I wouldn’t expect him to maintain his level of play.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
From 2008-11 (3 yrs) 5v5 zone start adjusted corsi.
Together: 3611:17 TOI, 53.1 corsi percentage, 54.1 goals for percentage
Suter Apart: 513:27 TOI, 47.9 corsi percentage, 42.5 goals for percentage
Weber Apart: 582:01 TOI, 48.2 corsi percentage, 41.1 goals for percentage
It seems they play better together than apart. Weber produces more offense when alone than Suter alone, but Suter produces better defensive numbers than Weber when separated. Personally, that is how I see them. Weber the better offensive guy, Suter the better defensive guy.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 1, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
that's adjusted for
zone start – what about QoC?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
QoC is almost irrelevant though you never know for the small sample size those two played apart.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 1, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions

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