Do The Leafs Need A Change?
Recently lots of talk has been in the offing around what and where the Leafs need to change if they hope to make the playoffs. The main stream media has been discussing the trade possibilities posed by this young Leafs squad, and much of this is due to Brian Burke's stated view that he would like to make moves that improve his team's long term outlook. This does not mean the team should - or will - mortgage the future in order to pick up veterans for a push right now. But if a trade is made, what do the Leafs need more of?
Alternatively - there are the occasional rumblings from Leafs fans that - despite a contract extension - Ron Wilson is the main problem in Leaf land. Fingers are pointed at the team's woeful penalty kill ranking (surprising given the fact that it has allowed 1 goal against since 2012 began), and much is made of Wilson's "inept" inability to counter different approaches thrown at the Leafs by their opposition.
I propose that we examine some of the underlying numbers from the past three seasons - both at the 56 game mark and the end of the season - in order to assess where the problems with this team may lie, both now, and into the future. Let's see if we can get at what is working, what will get better, and what might get worse.
| 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Score | RK | Score | RK | Score | RK | |
| 5v5 | ||||||
| SF/60 | 32.1 | 2 | 27.9 | 25 | 28.3 | 18 |
| SH% | 7.60% | 28 | 8.50% | 9 | 9.20% | 3 |
| SA/60 | 28.8 | 10 | 31.4 | 26 | 29.9 | 19 |
| SV% | 0.906 | 27 | 0.916 | 17 | 0.915 | 19 |
| Fen % Close | 51.55% | 8 | 46.39% | 26 | 48.64% | 23 |
| RD Fen % Close | 48.55% | 16 | 43.29% | 29 | 46.93% | 17 |
| PDO | 982 | 1001 | 1007 | |||
| 5v4 | ||||||
| SF/60 | 45.3 | 27 | 44.1 | 29 | 46.7 | 22 |
| SH% | 8.90% | 30 | 12.20% | 12 | 14.70% | 4 |
| 4v5 | ||||||
| SA/60 | 54.9 | 23 | 47.8 | 8 | 50 | 15 |
| SV% | 0.848 | 28 | 0.835 | 30 | 0.851 | 27 |
| 56 Game Mark | ||||||
| GF | 152 | 17 | 145 | 27 | 171 | 6 |
| GA | 195 | 30 | 171 | 25 | 166 | 25 |
| Differential | -43 | 30 | -26 | 26 | 5 | 10 |
| Record | 17-28-11 | 29 | 23-27-6 | 26 | 28-22-6 | 15 |
2009-10
In the 2009-10 season, the Leafs were struck by a number of issues. Firstly, Vesa Toskala was atrocious, and rookie Swedish import Jonas Gustavsson was asked to carry the load of team starter. Secondarily, they couldn't score, despite shooting - a lot of shots - at the opposition net. The team was actually fairly decent from the perspective of out shooting and out chancing the opposition, but nothing they did could produce goals or keep them out of their own net.
Brian Burke came to the conclusion that this was a team that needed to be stripped down and rebuilt on the basis of a lack of production from it's key players. He moved out Ian White, Matt Stajan, and Niklas Hagman in exchange for Dion Phaneuf, Fredrik Sjostrom, and prospect Keith Aulie. Lee Stempniak was jettisoned at the trade deadline for draft picks that turned into nothing. Alexei Ponikarovsky was moved out for the now moved on Luca Caputi, and lastly Jason Blake and Toskala were eventually moved for JS Giguere.
In terms of the cold hard stats - You can see from the chart that the Leafs were actually pretty good as a unit at even strength. Unfortunately shooting luck never seemed to go their way, so their possession advantage didn't earn them much in the way of offense. Their goaltending was well below par, their penalty kill was pretty brutal, and their power play didn't do enough to score. As an end result, half the team was traded and a more dedicated rebuild was begun.
2010-11
Last year was much better in some regards. The team shot for a higher percentage and their goaltending was vastly improved. James Reimer made a huge difference in net, and having two decent scoring lines helped out a lot by the end of the year. Defensively, the team was improved on the penalty kill in terms of shots allowed while down a man, but the younger group gave up more shots on goal 5v5 - particularly when Kaberle and Beauchemin were moved in February.
The team was dominated from a possession standpoint, and that in many ways attests to inexperience. They improved their goal differential mildly and luck wasn't against them at every turn. While the shooters improved their percentage, Goaltending was the largest improvement. The team did take a significant step back defensively on the blue line as a result of a youth movement.
2011-12
So far the team looks much better. They have two of the top scorers in the NHL in Phil Kessel and Joffrey Lupul, and they have promise in the likes of Mikhail Grabovski and Dion Phaneuf. Carl Gunnarsson seems to be rounding into form as a decent defenseman, and Jake Gardiner seems destined to be a solid puck moving defender.
John-Michael Liles and Cody Franson have helped to increase the offensive output of the blue line and add an air of stability and depth. Jonas Gustavsson has rebounded from a porous 2010-11 season, and James Reimer - despite his on-again off-again performance is still probably an improvement over the likes of Andrew Raycroft or Vesa Toskala.
The Leafs have improved their SF/60 and SA/60 at 5v5, both solid signs of a young team developing a more consistent identity. Their Close Fenwick % have improved both overall and on the road from last season. The Power Play has been far more productive, generating more shots, and scoring on a higher percentage of them than in either of the previous years. On the penalty kill, while not as stellar as last year, the SA/60 is still respectable at 50.0 and 15th in the NHL, but the team's SV% while down a man is still not good enough at .851.
This last number is largely the result of brutal numbers on behalf of the aforementioned Reimer. Whether it's luck or a flaw in his blocking style of play, the puck seems to go in a lot when Reimer's the man killing penalties, often on shots from the point. This continues to be an area of concern for the club.
So what else is there to worry about? Well - the main problem right now is that the team is likely to regress a bit. PDO - the sum of team SV% and SH% at even strength - is generally destined to head towards 1000 over the course of a season. Even if it doesn't make it there this year, the Leafs can't necessarily assume it remains above 1000 for next season. The team's shooting percentage at even strength of 9.2% seems relatively steady - and has hovered around that level since the 18th game of the season.
Where Do We Go From Here?
So what problems can the Leafs address via trades or coaching changes? Well I don't think Ron Wilson is controlling the Leafs' PK SA/60 as much as some others might. I think that is more a matter of personnel playing roles they may or may not be skilled at. Luke Schenn is having a rough year on the back end and is playing far less on the PK than he has in the past. Last year he was on the ice for 40.3 SA/60 at 4v5, this year he's on the ice for 45.4 SA/60 at 4v5. He also seems to be as unlucky as can be with a 4v5 on-ice SV% of .803.
Perhaps a calming influence on the blue line would help the PK out. I do think a shut down type defender would help in this regard, although if the Leafs are seeking a way to reduce shots against, they could play Komisarek more often.
For the Power Play to improve (which would be difficult) they need to play Franson and Liles more, while getting forwards on the ice that generate more shots... specifically Grabovski, Connolly and Bozak.
Overall I'm not sure I'm of the opinion this team needs a major overhaul. They're improving over time as pieces are being added. Luck is playing a big part in their offensive results, and their goaltending has been hit and miss at times this year. Going into next year, I think space needs to be made in the line up for some developing prospects, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of the veterans on the team moved for picks or prospects, particularly the likes of Lombardi, Connolly, or Armstrong.
I do NOT think any of the core pieces should be removed, and I don't think it makes sense to remove Ron Wilson. He's improved the team year over year, as has Brian Burke. This is a rebuild process, and you don't rebuild by taking foundational pieces and tossing them aside for shiny objects that look glitzy when you purchase them but add nothing to the long term health of your team.
I think I'm slowly falling into the Status Quo camp. If a serious upgrade is out there - go for it, but I don't think anything being rumoured would amount to a serious upgrade. As always comments and discussion are welcomed.
412 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Can I vote for all of the above?
I think all the things you suggest could use improvement but the order you listed them in the poll is probably the order of preference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 3:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
but the order would provide some bias to the average reader I suppose… can’t be helped.
I just tried to work from the net out with the player prospects, and felt the coaching could go first.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Which of the following areas do you feel Brian Burke and the Leafs need to upgrade the most going forward into next season?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I think the goaltending is still pretty suspect moving forward when you consider Reimer has less than 60 games of NHL experience. That said, the Leafs need some size and puck retrieval talent up front. It’s great to have a lot of speed and be able to score off the rush, but we’ve seen the Leafs really struggle against teams who clog up the neutral zone. Also, the Leafs have a pretty high SH% this season. They’re due for a drop in goals next year if the roster remains mostly the same.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
That said, the Leafs need some size and puck retrieval talent up front.
This is a big issue with the leafs
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Where is Ponikarovsky and Antropov when you need them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I meant up front, not as a team
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
defence defence defence defence
also defence
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 3:34 PM EST reply actions
yes, specifically a solid shut-down guy.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ARE YOU SAYING SCHENN SUCKS???
YOU’RE SAYING SCHENN SUCKS!
STOP SAYING SCHENN SUCKS1!!1
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I dont understand?
People here actually buy into this “the first and only thing we need to be a playoff team is a big forward” A legit shutdown D that can play 25+ minutes put this team into the playoffs, easy.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 3:43 PM EST reply actions
I dont think anyone said the first and only thing they need is big forward, however its definitely one of the things they need
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
I mean, whats coming from the Leafs is “we need to get bigger” and that’s all. Nothing about how the defense sucks.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
it’s more of a “what do they need MOST”
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Only 13 players in the NHL average 25 minutes a night. Maybe half of those guys are “shutdown” defenders. Simply put, unless your team lacks options or has injuries, you need a two way game or better to play those kinds of minutes. From what I gather from most people, they want a #1 LD to play with Phaneuf. That may be harder to find than a #1 goalie or size up front, plus it means moving one of Gardiner or Gunnarsson.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
depending on the incoming player, I have no problem with that
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
that true, I think Gunnarsson is okay. when Phaneuf and Gunnarsson are together its the other pairing that sucks.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Liles – Franson have actually been very impressive with shots allowed and their Corsi is excellent. They’re moving the puck in the right direction most nights. The two weakest defenders this season have been Schenn and Gardiner, and, unfortunately, they’re often paired together.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
again, true. Steve had some things to say about standard deviations and stuff i didn’t totally understand, I guess what he was saying was Franson is playing against such weak competition his Corsi should be better.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
basically I was saying given his zone starts, who he’s playing with, and who he’s playing against, he should be doing better than he is.
He isn’t.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
What we need
A centreman who can drive the play whith Kessel.
Then defense. Ideally, our pairings look like:
Phaneuf – (New Guy)
(?) – Liles
Franson – Gunnarson
Three good pairings. The question mark guy could conceivably come internally. Hell, it could be Schenn (though I doubt it).
I don’t understand. Is Kessel not producing enough? why exactly is Bozak not alright there? If you have two PPG players, who cares what position they are
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
a 1C would be peachy, especially a big guy who could work the down low cycle and draw defenders away from his wingers so Kessel and Lupul could float around and find ice
but the thing that would make the most difference to the Leafs, to me, is a Suter/Weber/whoever top pairing guy
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
cough Getzlaf cough
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
I’d take getzlaf in a heartbeat, but I still think Weber would make more of a difference to this exact team
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Getzlaf would be awesome, him and Kessel would score 150 points. but not NEEDED, the Leafs are among the best in the NHL at scoring
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
The offence is fine and Joffrey Lupul will be a top scorer in the NHL again next year?
Oh ok.
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Who knows, Lupul is 27, he could keep this up for a couple years, most likely not. I agree that the offense isn’t perfect, there are a lot of reasons for it, but a big problem on this team is defense, Gezlaf isn’t going to play 25 minutes a night of defense against the top line.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
I say we just get both Getzlaf and Weber and call it a day
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Feb 13, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
Why hasn’t Burke thought of this yet? Damnit!
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think it is needed. We might be producing well up front now, but we all know Lupul isn’t a PPG player. A Getzslaf-style center (big, scoring forward, preferably a centre) would go a long way to havign a sustainable first line that’s very difficult to play against.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Why isn’t Lupul a PPG player?
I’m not saying he is, I’m just curious as to why most here think his current production is unsustainable.
by JohnerstonRex on Feb 13, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
Probably because he isn’t a unicorn and because his numbers have never been near a ppg guy.
Assuming he doesn’t get a boneitus attack I think he continues his current pace over the next few years
by SanityNoMore on Feb 13, 2012 6:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Well look at his career numbers. He’s a very good player but he’s never been PPG.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
His highest season was .82 in 06 or 07 (im too lazy to double check). He was declining since to this season and then BAM 1.04?
Is there a chance that he is PPG sure, is it likely, nope
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
he’s also been battling injuries almost continously, lost a tonne of weight, and was behind an extremely stacked top group of forwards in Anaheim
www.twitter.com/CameronSorley
by CameronSorley on Feb 13, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yup, but at 28 he hits over PPG.
I hope we’re proven wrong, but I really dont think he puts up these numbers next year
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Most of all I hope he stays healthy. Regardless if he stays PPG or not, he has shown he can be a useful offensive contributor at the very least.
s •
Right, but if next year he drops down to say .7-.8 and becomes a 60ish point player then what? He is a UFA and will ask for how much?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
he's been
amazingly lucky this year… if we get 2 or 3 good years out of him I’m happy… if we trade him for a key future piece I’m also happy.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
It’s also not entirely about production, but about the team’s ability to control the play in the other team’s zone, something the first line is not all that great at.
The Roar of the Masses Could be Farts.
by Self Destructive Zones on Feb 13, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
yeah Suter would look real good there….regardless they need a guy like that: not too old, but experienced enough not to make those mistakes our younger guys make.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Schenn’s got to be on there, Burke isn’t trading him for anyone unless its a top line player coming back.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
I think that was his list of good defensemen.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Although, Steve and I found that Schenn has played the 5th most minutes of any defenseman jumping straight into the NHL. He doesn’t have many players to compare him to, he may work out yet.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Who were the players in front of him?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
all of the defensemen from the 2008 draft class you would think, plus Vlasic.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Bogosian, DOughty, Vlasic and Del Zotto?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
nevermind DelZotto ggot sent back
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
so not really any Schenn comparables. He may be ok
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Karlsson didn’t make the jump right away.
He also leads the NHL is points by a dman.
The only comparable so far to Schenn is Bogosian
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Karlsson is also god awful in his own end, like Lebda bad
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Oh he might be worse
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
and only 2 came is as 18 year olds
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
yep, so Schenn’s future isn’t fucked.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
NO ONE SAID IT WAS
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
except Birky
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
ah yes, you just think he’s crap and wont be ready in time to help the Leafs or something
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think he’ll be the shutdown guy everyone hopes he will. I think he’ll have a decent NHL career
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
whoa, a lot of people think it is. I never said YOU thought that.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
On this site? I dont think I have ever read someone here say Schenn’s future is fucked. Most people say he is a young defenceman and they need time to develop.
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
I think people think he’s bad and are worried about his future. I even find myself worrying about that.
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
that isn't the list ...
THIS was the list.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
I see you’ve played listy spoony before.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 13, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Doughty
Vlasic, Phaneuf, and one other – whose name I’m forgetting…
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe, but you can’t play him with Liles, who likes to jump into the play. You’re risking a lot of odd-man rushes with your safe guard being a slow, error-prone defender.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
this is ridiculous
why is a centre who can drive play with Kessel a necessary add? Kessel is over a ppg, in the top 10 in league scoring… and Lupul is up there with him – so he has someone to run with.
Grabovski is a great C at driving play, and Bozak is keeping pace with Kessel and Lupul as a 3rd year fwd.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
There. Possesion. Numbers. Are. Shit.
Our. Team’s. Possesion. Numbers. Are. Shit.
Bottom third in the league in fact.
and one player will not magically change that
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
ok
adding size doesn’t automatically grant you possession.
The best possession players on our team are grabovski, macarthur and kulemin… in that order. Kulemin is the biggest of the three… and NONE of them is particularly a power forward.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Datsyuk
is basically the best possession player in the NHL – and he’s not a power forward.
Having size to go to the net doesn’t have much to do with possession.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Most small players can be pushed off the puck (Blake) and that leads to a turn over (change in possession) and a possible shot against (scoring chance) and so there corsi worsen.
Datsyuk is not easy to push off the the puck so he doesn’t turn over puck but rather generates scoring chances/shots and his corsi improves.
Blake
was also a very good puck possession player. Not sure why we think he wasn’t.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
because he was small
and he never really did much when he had possession except skate it around the zone and lob wristers at the goalie
but yeah, he held onto that puck like a mother fucker
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
right
so I’m still confused why we assume size = possession. Otherwise Luke Schenn and Mike Komisarek wouldn’t suck so bad at it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
oh and
Keith Aulie would be a beast with the puck.
Reality is – big guys often have worse hands and therefore SUCK at holding onto the puck.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Good point to consider. I was thinking of a Kulimen player who can check players along the board and recover the puck. But that is more the exception then the norm with size. He is good at protecting the puck and is big.
yes he is
which is why he is probably one of the best all around Leafs.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t just think of the ‘Possession’ numbers (i.e. Corsi & Fenwick) as a measure of ‘holding onto the puck’. Thats not what it means.
Corsi and Fenwick count shot attempts for and against, and they look at ScoreTied and ScoreClose to take out the score effects.
Think of it like this: lots of different things can lead to a team getting a shot on the net. Winning a board battle, crisp passing, utilizing speed, decking, %110ing… whatever you can think of.
Obviously, some guys are better shooters than others (Crosby is better than Jason Blake). But, all in all, a good team will consistently win the shot battle (the possession battle) when tied or close.
Jason Blake wasn’t a top 6/9 sniper, but he was decent defensively (because he was decent at driving the play / possession).
There is more to judging a hockey team than just Corsi/Fenwick. But it’s not something you should discount.
We need Getzlaf and Suter or Weber. If we didn’t have Komisarek, Lombardi, Armstrong and Schenn we could even afford to pay/sign them.
Offizielles Mitglied des MĂĽller / Holzer Fan-Clubs. Ich fordere mehr Deutsche in diesem Team ....... tweet me @Alex_Scotian
If we need to clear space, Burke will be able to do it. A cap floor team may want Komi in the off-season, as he costs 3.5M but has a 4.5M cap hit.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
He’s still 3.5 million dollars of suck. If Burke moves him i only see toxicity coming back.
Offizielles Mitglied des MĂĽller / Holzer Fan-Clubs. Ich fordere mehr Deutsche in diesem Team ....... tweet me @Alex_Scotian
there are worse defencemen out there, believe it or not.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
If I don’t eat this month I can afford a down payment on a BMW M3, doesn’t mean its plausible
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
If I wasnt engaged, I could be free to date Kate Upton!
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
to be fair
you’re engaged – not married… you’re still free to do whatever you want.
My wife was engaged when I met her… just saying.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Did you use random advanced stats to steal her away?
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
by TheBurnward on Feb 13, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
she had no idea
until we were living together really.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
He just gave her a ring
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
And a ring
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
And a ring
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
And a ring ding diddly ing
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
And voila! New wife!
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Way to spoil my point steve
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
the simple addition of a .920 sv % goalie would be my choice. Burkie has alway mentioned he builds his teams from the goal out…if so, why is there currently 30 goalies in the NHL with better save %‘s than our two guys? I know top tier goalie’s do not grow on trees but this is a fatal flaw in Burkie’s re-build to date.
by killerninetythree on Feb 13, 2012 4:06 PM EST reply actions
the problem with adding a .920 goalie is that isn’t a “simple addition”.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
the simple addition of a .920 sv % goalie
Holy shit, why didn’t Burke think of this
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
the other problem is
he thought he had one when he added Reimer – his SV% was .921 last year.
Speaking of Reimer, his 2 year SV% is still pretty decent at .915… I’m not as worried as some of you appear to be.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
The goalie guild guys drool the most over Jussi’s potential. They’re not all that blown away with Reimer, and they think that Gus made a terrible move comint to TO (he was already fairly polished with the dynamic butterfly style, then came to TO and was immediately put into the NHL level net with no time to adapt to the N. American game, and forced to try to switch to Allaire’s blocking style… which they reckon you can’t do overnight, it would take at least a year or two… And he’s trying to make that double adaptation in front of NHL shooters. They think that was just set up to fail.
I like Rynnas
and Scrivens and Reimer and Gus even… we have a lot of depth.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
Owuya
is solid also.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
IMO Burke is most hopeful in building those .920 goalies internally over a number of years with Allaire… i.e. hoping the work with Reimer, Rynnas, Scrivens, Owuya eventually pays dividends.
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
teams trade confirmed number one goalies all the time don’t they?
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
I meant he’d rather develop one then hope to nab one as a UFA.
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting that Giguere seems to be doing better in Colorado.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
he’s finally healthy again
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
surgery will do that
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
they are also
a higher fenwick % team.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
And that effects his save percentage how?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
didn't say it does.
Just saying he faces fewer shots.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
My guess is either: A) he thinks Allaire can morph questionable players like Gus and Reimer into something good enough to compete or B) he doesn’t want to pay for goaltending, which tends be overpriced, in addition to his earlier cap fumbles.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
true number one goalies that have been traded in the past 5 years? any one?
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Bryz on waivers.. that’s it really, maybe if one of the canucks goalies move
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t have called Bryz a TRUE number one when that happened, but JFJ was a fucking moron for not offering Burke a 3rd or something
and the same goes for Schneider and Rask, great prospects, tons of talent, but they are not proven number ones
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
JFJ was a fucking moronfor not offering Burke a 3rd or something
FTFY
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Traded when they are a #1?
Luongo, Halak and Roloson.
Cynically Sarcastic
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік
Luongo was 06, so he didn’t make the year cut
Vokoun is another that qualifies
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Halak
is the number 1. Luongo is the number 1. That’s 2 number ones.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
ah yes, Halak, I knew there was one
Roloson is…..well he is an odd case
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
and Halak
wasn’t a clear number 1 in MTL when he was dealt – they had Price remember?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
right, but he was a “number one” from his body of work, he wasn’t exactly a prospect who got 10 games a year
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
right
he’s no Bobrovsky? oh wait…
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
These won’t tell you who was traded or let go, or even if they put up two consecutive good seasons, but “players who have met the mentioned requirements more than once in the past five years, on more than one team.”
Just going by > 50 GP in a season to mean “true number one” (a terrible definition), here – Bryzgalov, Rolie, Anderson, Mason, Lehtonen, Elliot, Theodore. Halak will make the list, as will Vokoun, but was a UFA, not a trade.
By > 20 GP and >.915 SVP, that list is here – Vokoun (UFA not trade), Bryzgalov, Giguere, whose play had slipped before being traded and was certainly not a #1 ahead of Hiller, Huet, Niemi, Anderson, and, uh, Ty Conklin, who definitely was not a number one, but meets the lax requirements set above.
People who weren’t year-to-year, established “#1s” but were moved after putting up a strong season:
Khabibulin (UFA)
Nabokov (UFA)
Theodore (UFA, 32 GP in Minny, .916 – not a true #1, but good enough to mention)
Niemi, (UFA)
Vokoun (UFA)
Basically, if you want to find a #1 on the open market, you need to be very, very, very prepared to take on risk.
Luongo as well, but he was 5.5 years ago.
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
As Jared mentioned, Bryz should be in that UFA category, as he didn’t meet either category before the time when he was waived.
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
Basically, if you want to find a #1 on the open market, you need to be very, very, very prepared to take on risk.
There was such a bevy of free agent goalie options available this past summer it’s not even funny. Vokoun, Budaj, Theodore, Hedberg, Mike Smith, the list goes on.
And what would have been the risk of picking up one of these guys? If they hadn’t worked out, they could have been put on waivers and the Marlies eat the cap hit.
It is completely inexcusable that Burke failed to pick up a UFA goalie this past summer, even if he was hell-bent on Reimer as the goaltender of the future, then he should ahve picked up a backup for him.
Now we’ve got a situation where we’re into must-win games and we have two unreliable goaltenders. The goalie UFA market for 2012 will not be as kind, which makes the failure to pick up a UFA goalie last summer even worse.
I think we can save this season with consistent goaltending. If a deal is still out there that would bring Nabokov here for a 2nd, that’s the trade I’m going for.
Next season of 24/7: "I am named Mikhail. I watch video to fold together strategy. I want outdoors to fight bravely."
by Peter de Chatham on Feb 13, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
goaltending, not main issue
bigger fish to fry
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think our goaltending is THE major issue for the Leafs right now.
We could have picked up at least 2 points out of Phillie and Edmonton if we had better goaltending. And countless other games where a superior goalie would have eked out an OT/SO loss for us.
If we’re golfing this spring, we’ll see in April how many points we’re out of a playoff spot. And how much a good goalie would have made a difference.
Next season of 24/7: "I am named Mikhail. I watch video to fold together strategy. I want outdoors to fight bravely."
by Peter de Chatham on Feb 13, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
We won against Edmonton……..
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
by Killer Sundin on Feb 13, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
the Leafs would have also picked up at least 2 points out of Philly and Edmonton if they had more scoring in those games, or the defense didn’t fuck up so much
goaltending is an issue, but not the major one
a medeocre back up doesn’t help the leafs at all
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
I’m for keeping our goalies and boosting the defence core,. That is were the most problems seam to come from. Giveaways are much to frequent in a lot of games even when we win. This should be addressed instead of trying to get a # 1 goalie. Remember we gave up Rask for Roycroft and we all know how that turned out. Defence is the key to the problems. But that is just my way of thinking. Feel free to disagree.
this makes no sense
Edmonton game – Leafs won.
Philadelphia outshot the Leafs 39-27 despite leading for most of the game (score effects would imply the Leafs would shoot more).
With 39 shots against, the Leafs would have had to have had .923 goaltending if they had allowed 1 less goal against… that isn’t exactly a huge distinction. They’d still have gone to OT, given up more shots, and likely lost.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Budaj………. Really??
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
by Killer Sundin on Feb 13, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
The market for goalies this year isn't awful - especially if you're considering Mike Smith a legit "UFA miss"
He was a .900 goalie for 2 years straight before signing with PHX, whose defensive system I’m pretty sure tends to inflate SV% figures
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
And what would have been the risk of picking up one of these guys?
Hedberg didn’t hit the open market, but hey, let’s say he did. He’s got a .908. Budaj .906. Mike Smith had two seasons of .900 or below before going to Phoenix. Vokoun was offered a job on a contender. Theodore was offered two years, which kills the “one year and gone” thing (though I was on board with signing Vokoun, Theodore, or even Emery to one year deals). Oh, and speaking of Emery? .901.
Jonas Gustavsson currently has a .909, and isn’t being paid a UFA price (or term) to do it. Only the last three teams
No, I didn’t bank on Gustavsson putting up a .909 going in to the season – I didn’t even bank on him putting up a .909 halfway through a season. But you can’t pretend like there wasn’t any risk associated with being in on Budaj, Elliot, Smith, or even a guy like Harding – when you say “what would have been the risk?” the risk is that they put up worse goaltending than Jonas Gustavsson would/could. Burke may have had too much faith in Jonas, but the monster has delivered a mediocre backup-quality performance so far this season, and I think it’s pretty hard to argue that the team is worse off because Gus has been behind Reimer rather than Ray Emery or Peter freakin’ Budaj.
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
by Bower Power on Feb 13, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
(add to second paragraph)
Only two of the last three teams got anything close to a reliable netminder out of the open market. After you add Mike Smith, that’s only three out of all the options you’ve listed. Risky.
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
every deal
has risk in it… so being risk averse may not be in our interests here.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
or C) There’s no #1 goaltenders available because, well, they’re all the #1 goalies for their respective team.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
there are some interesting, albeit older, names available this summer.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
players to consider this summer: Vokoun, Nabaokov, Biron, Harding.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
Harding might be a good bet. I doubt Vokoun wants to come to a team like ours at his age, but I’m open to it.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Heh I was just taking this poll in the FTB thread
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Ellis
think he should be on there. Highest career SV% UFA available after Nabokov I believe.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think Ellis could be given away and no one would want him right now.
Recent performance trumps career performance
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at Ellis’ numbers… he had one really good year as a pending UFA with Nashville.
Every other year he’s been .911 or less (.911 being this year… in 10 GP)
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I know it’s cherry picking, but he’s a .9026 career if you take out that .924 nashville season.
Pass.
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
what if you take out the first 13 games?
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, yeah, I knew it as I wrote it. Regardless, Dan Ellis is pretty lousy.
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
.911
is still better than the Leafs goalies.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Dan Ellis
is not the answer
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
none of these available goalies are
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
I really hope Chicago fires Quennville…
Then we’d finally have someone to replace Wilson.
I get both sides of the Wilson argument but the thing is right now there isn’t a better option to lead this team the rest of the year. You do not bring in a newbie coach during a playoff run. Q and Carlyle are the only options and Carlyle is a question mark on if he’s an upgrade or not imo
Kadri Fanboy since 2006
it’s cute that you think Burke would do that
but hey, it would at least give the fire wilson crowd a viable “well THAT guy probably would be a better fit! why didn’t we sign him?”
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
There was also a large “Fire Julian” movement at Stanley Cup of Chowder before they won the Cup.
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Would Hitchcock or Boudreau have made a difference on the leafs?
I’m not sure how measure a coach – win/loss or special teams or if he still has the room. The only thing I seem to recall of good coaching in a game was Pat Burns calling a timeout and the leafs scoring shortly afterwards. And he did all things like dressing 5 defence men in that one playoff game
I still maintain that Boudreau is a horrid coach, and I don’t think Hitchcock’s system would work well with the Leafs current roster
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Fire Wilson.
Twitter - @DanielM44
by Wendel4 on Feb 13, 2012 4:24 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think consistent goaltending is the most obvious need. I’m still holding out hope that it can be Reimer, but his career’s way too young for us to know what we have.
Beyond that, I don’t think you can say we need a shutdown D more than a big physical forward, or vice versa. We need both of them equally. And badly.
That's "Da-ooo". Like the drink.
We need both of them equally. And badly.
Amen brother
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Unfortunately, I don’t see the trade deadline as an opportunity to get either. This off-season there will be some talented players, though Burke’s signing history with UFAs is generally not that great….
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
See, here’s the thing.
I don’t think it’s imperative for us to get a ‘big, physical forward’.
What is imperative is for us to add a centre who can actually drive the play. If it was a chocie between, say:
Milan Lucic/ 2009 Chris Stewart
or
healthy Mark Savard / 2009 Derek Roy / Clone of Grabbo
Then we’d be better off with the small centre. Dont get me wrong, size is really nice. But it’s not the thing we need the need the most.
I disagree. We have lots speed and craftiness. We have very little ability to muck shit up when teams take away our speed.
That's "Da-ooo". Like the drink.
we're scoring enough
that I don’t think the Fwd is key.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Our possession numbers are shit, and Lupul aint getting any younger (or better at defense).
We need a centre.
the leafs need a legit 1st line power forward, doesn’t matter if he is a Center (though that would be preferable)
they need a number 2 defender more
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
our possession
numbers aren’t shit… unless you’re reading the chart above wrong.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t have access to behindthenet right now so I cant quote them directly. Give me an hour and a 1/2ish.
the chart above
has the team’s close fenwick % and road close fenwick % numbers on it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Must Crash the Net Harder

"They build a statue, they knock it down and piss on it, and now they will be out there building it again."
by ThickSkinnedAlive on Feb 13, 2012 4:50 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
If Burke does make a deal at the deadline, i’m hoping for a true, shut down defender. Someone like a Barrett Jackman, not too old and wouldn’t cost an arm and a leg. Failing that, a sizeable power forward (Similar to Scott Hartnell), great at getting pucks and battling along the boards. However, I don’t see any big change coming until the offseason. Maybe a backup goalie swap, but even that’s unlikely.
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
I find it weird
how people have turned this into “what unicorns do we want”.
Let’s be realistic in our aspirations here guys… we aren’t adding one of the top 5 D men in the NHL… that just isn’t going to happen.
Bryan Allen? possible. Roman Polak? maybe if we offer up the right pieces.
For goalies? Ellis is a possibility.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Never get tired of seeing these.
Ran across this again while stat hunting.
Colby was a .85 PPG player in Pittsburgh. wtf?
At least it's not Lebda.
Is that when he learned to be injured constantly ?
At least it's not Lebda.
by Nifty Mittens on Feb 14, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
That more people have voted for offence than defence makes me sad.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
yep
I’m with you guys on that one… oh well… Rome wasn’t built in a day.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
GOALZ IS FLASHY AND THEY MEAN EVERYTHING
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Me too
It seems clear as day that offence is not our biggest priority.
What is life without hope?
by danishmarshmallow on Feb 13, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
It’d be interesting to post a similar poll like this right after a game in which we scored 6+ goals rather than got shutout though
Fans have short memories
No no, dig UP stupid.
by nhlcheapshot on Feb 13, 2012 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
James Reimer – despite his on-again off-again performance is still probably an improvement over the likes of Andrew Raycroft or Vesa Toskala.
I don’t know but when I read that it seems to me that is an issue; I mean it would be great if that read “…likes of Cujo 1.0 or Belfour” but it doesn’t and don’t know if one will be able to say that any time soon about him. I think the whole fire wilson thing is just wrong at this point in the team’s development stage right now. Size especially with speed is always welcome on any team as well as a minute munching Dman which leads me to think that we are still a young developing team that needs to grow in all areas… the important thing is that we are headed in the right direction and hopefully stay there for years to come.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
Re:coach
I was thoroughly for getting a new coach before Burke blew up the team. It made sense at that point to bring in someone to ‘grow with the kids.’ Although I still believe Wilson will not usher in long-term success, firing him at this point makes no sense.
What is life without hope?
by danishmarshmallow on Feb 13, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
People seem to think
that when I suggest shut down D it automatically means he has to play big minutes – this is NOT correct.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
No, he doesn’t have to at all. But it would be nice so we can shelter Schenn and Gardiner a bit more.
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
by Killer Sundin on Feb 13, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
well if he is going to be shutting down the other teams best offensive players and play the bulk of PK time against said players, someone who can trot out 20 mins a night is preferred
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, shut down D means shuting down top lines, top lines play 19-21 minutes a night
by pho king awesome on Feb 13, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
And the other possibility is that...
… the Leafs crash and burn over the next two weeks.
And yep, that could happen. They’re not playing particularly well, neither goalie is in full shutdown mode, Gunnar just went down, it’s a nasty 3 game road trip out West with a B2B, then the NJ Devils and San Jose and Washington at home… and yup, they could choke it all down, or lose a couple of soft goals, or…. whatever.
Question then would be…. do you strip a half-dozen veterans off and deal them for goodies at the deadline. Komi, sure. Army, Ok. Connolly and Lombo, yup. But do you look at even dealing guys like Lupul (top of his market value), Kulie, Liles, MacArthur, Steckel or Gus?
In my view, the Leafs have to have at least two major scenarios in their pockets as this deadline approaches. The one would be to deal early for a key asset that pushes them over the top…. the other has to be to trade away some of this depth and load up on picks and prospects, then sign or trade for a high end talent or two at year’s end.
The worst case would be to sit tight and then… miss the playoffs by a point.
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 6:38 PM EST reply actions
if things fall to utter shite, I would not be against a mini rebuild where everything that no longer qualifies as “potential” is shipped off
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone not named Kessel or Phaneuf or Grabovski is fair game at the NHL level. I’d prefer any mini-rebuild stay away from AHL and lower players mostly too.
Finally got twitter...@mapleleafmjt
by Chi-town leafs on Feb 13, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, Gunnarsson and Reimer too
Finally got twitter...@mapleleafmjt
by Chi-town leafs on Feb 13, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
If you had asked me a couple weeks ago, I probably would have said to you
Leafs should make a push to get one or two key picks and make a push. But lately as I’ve come off the emotional high of the Leafs doing well, Reimer seemingly back in form (though apparently not really), and Gustavsson also playing well, I’ve kind of crossed over to the other side.
Honestly, I think the Leafs are a year or and some young pieces away from becoming a team that can put together a few years of contending deep into the playoffs. Goaltending is an issue, but with Reimer still developing and Rynnas/Scrivens/Sparks/Owuya in the system, I think we shouldn’t go chasing a high-cost goalie…yet.
I think the Leafs should move komi, army, connolly, lombo, liles (yes, liles), macarthur, for a few more pieces and to open up cap space. Pick up some picks and prospects from, resign key FAs (Grabo, Kule, Franson, Gunnarsson), and try to push hard in another year or two. If a Lupul trade right now could bring back legitimate top 6 prospects, I would be open to that too to be honest. I think the key young pieces I think the Leafs should avoid trading right now are
Kessel, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Gardiner, Kadri, Colborne, Franson, Bozak (for his price, he’s more than we could ask for), Grabovski (under $5mil would be very nice), Kulemin, Reimer. Marquee prospects like Blacker, Holzer, McKegg, Rynnas, Ross, should only be moved for people who can be key pieces going forward, certainly not for rentals. The Leafs are in no position to be chasing rental pieces.
by LeftNutForAStarCenter on Feb 14, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
It's the coaching
When I’m watching the Leafs perform badly, it’s usually against teams that have done their homework on us. Players that do not let us play our game and, instead, force us to play theirs. Usually these games boil down to boring “dump-and-chase” or Kessel/Lupul/Grabovski getting a few opportunities to try and split the D that don’t work. Never in these games do you see true breakaways, 2-on-1s for us, or dump-ins that lead to us pinning the other team in their zone. In fact, the other teams get these opportunities instead. And I think this problem can be summed up in one word.
Adaptability. We have none. When we come up against these teams, we try the same things all game and fail, every time. There’s no instinct taught. I’m sorry, but I’m going back to the old criticism against Wilson from December: he teaches plays, not hockey knowledge, know-how, and what to do when the shit hits the fan. Not everything goes our way every game, and these guys need to know what to do when it happens.
Do I think we need a shut-down defender and/or a real centreman? Definitely. But I think we need changes in the mind first. (Plus, I think we can get a shut-down d-man from within)
This is probably me seeing what has happened to the Blues recently and wanting the same thing. Actually, that’s exactly what it is.
If I bled any more blue, you'd think I wasn't human.
If a player is in the NHL you’d hope he has a little bit of hockey knowledge.
Never in these games do you see true breakaways, 2-on-1s for us, or dump-ins that lead to us pinning the other team in their zone. In fact, the other teams get these opportunities instead.
Teams playing poorly generally don’t get these things. When the Leafs play well, they get these things.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
The leafs circa 2009 have a better Fenwick Road Close then the current leafs. I’m not sure I can convince myself that a Stajan/White/Poni//Hagman could beat a Kessel/Lupul/Grabbo/Phaneuf team if the 2009 had a Reimer equivalent goalie.
I’m just looking for an explanation to why our post-lockout teams, despite decent possession numbers, were atrocious, but now, with below average possession numbers, we are a bubble team (ie better than atrocious)
s •
shooting percentages
were AMAZINGLY bad. You had guys that could get and hold on to the puck, but not many that could put it in the net.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
shooting skill?
at the team level – no… but shooting location? yes.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
It’s been shown numerous times that shooting percentage is a skill. It’s unfortunate the guy who put out that award is blinded by reality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
there is evidence
that shooting skill is repeatable in aggregate amongst a group of players… i.e. in Tom Awad’s ref to what makes good players good posting.
Within that group? not so much that I’m aware of.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
also
the person we’re referring to has acknowledged that certain players consistently outperform expecting shooting percentages, i.e. Kovalchuk and Tanguay. He even has postings of expected vs. real shooting percentages.
What has not been shown to be a repeatable skill is TEAM shooting percentage.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
His shot quality challenge wasn’t limited to team shooting percentage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
no
it wasn’t… I’m not making his argument for him… I don’t really think it’s repeatable at the team level… I do think some players have higher SH% long term as a result of shot locations (which weren’t mentioned in Awad’s study).
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
Actually shot location was mentioned in Tom Awad’s article. He identified 3 things: out shooting (i.e. generating shots), out finishing (shooting percentage) and shot quality (generating shots from better scoring locations). Finishing ability had the greatest variability across his ‘tiers’ followed closely by out shooting and shot quality had a very small variance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
ah right
ok that makes more sense – I haven’t read it in a while.
Either way – the high variability of “finishing” implies a large luck effect.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
Actually no. The high variability of “finishing” over small sample sizes does not imply luck, it simply means we can’t rule out luck. I think that is where people get all off track. They have concluded that if we can’t infer something to a 95% confidence level it must be luck. That is not the case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
ok high variation
equates to luck… unless you can explain what is causing the variation.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Small sample size randomness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
If you can take any group of players selected using an independent (from shooting percentage) metric and show that as a group they have an elevated shooting percentage then you have shown that shooting percentage is a skill. Tom Awad did that with his grouping method and I showed it when I grouped players by ice time over the past 4 seasons. Order is the enemy of luck and when you see order like that it is clear evidence of something else going on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
there's an issue
with saying it’s a repeatable skill on a group level but then struggle to pinpoint it at the individual level.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
The issue with repeatability at the individual level is sample size. There is randomness involved and because of that randomness it is difficult to identify repeatability to a high degree of confidence at the individual level. But, group similar players together you begin to eliminate the sample size issues.
Plus, it can be shown that there is some shooting percentage persistence at the individual “on-ice” level when looking at 2 years vs 2 years of data (i.e. 2007-09 vs 2009-11).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
fair enough
but again samples will be an issue as many players don’t play 4+ years and those that do are generally more skilled.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. I only included forwards who had played 500 minutes of ice time in each of the 4 seasons. This does limit the pool to at minimum a group of pretty good players. But by limiting the pool you are just making it more difficult to identify persistence because you are dealing with a smaller group of similarly talented players. If the Colton Orr’s of the world played 500 minutes a season for 4 straight seasons it would be much easier to identify persistence I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
you think
but as we’re both saying – it’s extremely hard to verify. Self selection, coach selection, league selection… all of that confounds the attempt to identify it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
I guess where we disagree is that I believe by grouping players by ice time and seeing shooting percentage stratification that that is proof of a players ability to drive shooting percentage and you don’t.
But I also see that players can and do have statistically significant differences in their on-ice shooting percentages. Marian Gaborik’s on-ice shooting percentage is different than Travis Moen’s to a high degree of confidence (far more than 95% if we use multiple seasons of data).
I also see that if I sort a list of players by on-ice shooting percentage (especially multi-year on-ice shooting percentages) we see the best offensive players rise to the top and the weaker more defensive players fall to the bottom. That ‘order’ to me is evidence that there is more than luck in play. Order is the biggest enemy of luck whenever we see it we know something other than luck is involved.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey
by HockeyAnalysis on Feb 13, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Well, some guys are better shooters than others (Crosby is a career 15%, Brooks Orpik is a career 2.9%). Part of that is location, and part of it would also be skill.
Ovechkin, however, is only a career 12%. Gabe Desjardins actually had an article on Arctic Ice Hockey about ‘1st’ lines having higher shooting percentages than the lower lines.
Tom Awad
did a lot of work on it at Hockey Prospectus actually… his was more detailed.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
That said, if you look at different seasons, the shooting percentages have a lot of swing. As for the reasons for the swing, or high that expected shooting% (based on location), well…
HockeyAnalysis thinks one think, pretty much everyone else thinks something different.
Steve, lets continue this discussion on the thread just above cause I see you are getting into it.
I wonder how much impact scoring has on those stats. If a team scores a lot then they might not take as many shots (score effects are one reason but the fact that the first shot goes in might as well). Same with PP numbers. The Leafs have a top 6/7 PP. Makes sense that they’d need fewer shots to score right?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I don’t like the one change but I would choose the better defender or #1C depending on who was available. They will both need for when the team competes for the cup.
This is my wish list in order
1. Free cap space by unloading bad contracts (Komi, Lombo, Army, Connolly)
2a. Get a defensive defenseman UFAs (Allen, Stuart, Jackman, Salvador (older), Mitchell (older))
2b. Keep pursuing #1C trade
2c. Get a veteran mentor 1a for Reimer 1b
3. Balance forward lines for size/speed
cap space is your primary wish? really?
that is just silly
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
cap space may become important in the summer, but yeah, it’s not number one now. At all.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
if Burke needs cap space, cap space will appear
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
I think he should be looking to create cap space and not rush to fill a void, not that you are saying that.
If the right defender or center is available then you drop everything and do that first but let’s not sign another “Finger” because we are short defenders
he won’t do that, if anything it will be a “trade player for shite value so you can sign/trade for expensive player”
like the Kubina deal
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
And then the leafs win 3 in a row
and we completely forget about this whole conversation.
Jesus, we lost a couple close ones and then shit the bed against the habs and all of a sudden we have to fire the coach.
It’s exactly what Sundin was mentioning in his speech!
I don't think
I ever suggested that firing the coach was a good idea – in fact I’m pretty obviously arguing to the contrary.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Not you specifically
But the “occasional rumblings from leaf fans” you mentioned
yeah
well if you look at the vote it’s still high on the list for a lot of people 24% of the readers in fact.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
Not at all
Pretty sure with the deadline coming up a discussion about what areas the Leafs might look to improve is pretty relevant no matter how they are doing lately.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I’d like some shut down d-men and size (not scoring) up front.
The Leafs average 30.6 shots a game which, while 19th in the league, is still pretty bad. With league average goaltending, they’ll allow about 3 goals a game.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 13, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
I ranked offence first because a unicorn center is the most difficult to find.
A shutdown defender should be easier to acquire
that wasn’t the question
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
I voted D!
What is life without hope?
by danishmarshmallow on Feb 13, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
There’s an argument to be made for forwards, based on the SA/gp vs. post-Beauch and the current SA/gp, and bolstered by the fact that Lupul isn’t exactly a prime candidate to repeat, meaning it’ll be a concern going forwards. I voted for defense, and think it’s probably a big issue (another shutdown LD), but I think “I don’t want to live on this planet any more” is a bit extreme.
RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter
by Bower Power on Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Something that wasn’t really mentioned, in the bottom six group of forwards, we don’t really have any defensive specialists (like a Pahlsson or Malhotra). I think that might actually be pretty useful considering we only have about two or three players who are half decent at defence.
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
Steckel
is extremely under-rated defensively. He has excellent size, and is great on faceoffs … and does a very good job from a corsi perspective.
He is great… I have zero problem with him in that role,
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
I see. Not a huge stat guy (I never have advanced stats on hand). Good to know though
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
by Killer Sundin on Feb 13, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
My hands are quite large so I write all the corsi on them.
I will stand beside him with an axe! @theninjagreg
by theninjagreg on Feb 14, 2012 2:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
OFFENSE: This team has speed, but needs big, physical presences up front to prevent teams from clogging them up in the neutral zone and giving them room to get their way to the offensive zone.
DEFENSE: shutdown defender that ensures we have more options against difficult comp, reduce shots on net.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 13, 2012 7:39 PM EST reply actions
go slower...
and crash into stuff.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
the only thing size (with skill an a willingness to use said size) would help a bundle is down low cycling and board battles
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
in the offensive zone
I assume… but the question is who the hell do people think is really available?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
Realistically? No one except JVR and thats a maybe
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
yup, but shy of JVR, Carter, Ruutu….yea not much
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
apparently
Dreger is saying Paajarvi is available… he’s got size… and speed… and skill… and he’s a former 1st round pick.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, wouldnt call him a power forward, but he has the tools
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
he sure hasn’t done much with the tools, but he is still young.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
15 goal rookie season
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, true, but he’s not doing well in the AHL and started off the year badly with Edmonton too. Then again, it is Edmonton. I’d take him but Edmonton seems to be wanting ridiculous returns for their players. Hence their defense sucks because they wont make a trade to move those guys they have up front.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
he's had pretty horrible
puck luck… it isn’t really a sure thing he can’t score by any stretch.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Read up on him @ Copper and Blue
They are still really high on the guy. They had him skating 9 minutes a night, and with guys like Belanger and Eager.
Pajaarvi and Gagner are two guys i would want from the Oilers. Hemsky too, depending on cost.
(And these are guys we could realistically acquire. Obviously we aren’t getting Taylor Hall).
just say no to Hemsky
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
he's old enough
that I have no interest… but he’s better than his numbers this year.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
I’d rather have Magnus long-name than Hemsky.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
Fun with Corsi - Ales Hemsky addition
Ranks second among forwards in toughness of competition.
Actually has a positive CorsiOn, one of only 2 oilers forwards to do so.
Zone Start 49.3, zone finish 47. That isn’t flattering, but considering the preceding numbers doesn’t look bad.
All that being said…
… I wouldn’t want to pay a high price. I would want to send a forward back (unless they want Komi;)), someone like Crabb or Lombardi. And the futures that we give up would have to be of the middling kind (low ceiling prospects, later picks).
Considering the shit return the Oilers got for Penner (that 1st would have been lower had Kopitar not busted his leg, and Teubert has a low ceiling), and considering how poor Hemsky’s counting stats are this year, I think it’s not unrealistic that he’ll go cheap. Tambellini ain’t exactly into advanced metrics all that much, he’ll sell low.
Now, I want to be clear on 2 things. I don’t think Hemsky is going to have a massive rebound on the Leafs. He’s a 10 (maybe 15) goal, 30-40 point guy tops. I’m okay with that. I want him for his two way abilities.
The other thing is, I don’t think I’d move any futures other than late picks or real crappy prospects unless there is a realistic shot at him resigning for cheap. If it’s just a roster player and a 5th or some shit, thats fine for a rental because we need to move bodies out at forward. But otherwise no.
As for his injuries… he’s play 42 this year, but the past two seasons have been rough. I still think it could be worth the risk.
I really wish Kulemin would pick it up and be our net presence and beast along the boards cause he can be so good at it!
Colborne, I think, could be decent at it when he’s NHL-ready.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 13, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Colborne reeeeeeeeally needs to work on his physical game if he ever hopes to be a player like that
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
That was the biggest knock on him from what I remember, He didn’t use his size effectively at all
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
He was okay along the boards, but otherwise…yeah….
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 13, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
he reminds me of steckel, with offense.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
neither is Kulemin
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing, but a guy who can actually win some board battles can help recover the puck if the leafs have to switch to a more dump and chase type of game
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Effectively what I was referring to. Basically, whenever teams clog up our speed in the neutral zone, we’re boned.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 13, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Find it interesting
how many people think a bigger forward corps would make us improved. Also baffled by how many people think D isn’t a problem… but that’s just me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Is the poor puck possession (fenwick) because of turn overs because we don’t have a forward for dump and chase and crash through the neutral zone trap?
Or because the leafs can’t clear the zone and the defenders are turning over the puck or making bad positional choices?
I think people view the source of low fenwick (puck possession) differently.
I’d pin the turnovers on the young defence. It might have to do with coaching, but more likely they are being coached the right thing and just failing to execute.
Schenn’s turnover on the second MTL goal… not Wilson’s fault.
s •
I think I’m saying
If we dump and chase and lose the puck or if we lose the puck by not breaking the neutral zone trap, that recovered puck by the opposition can become a shot on net (scoring chance).
Or if the defenders do a similar thing and turn over the puck with a panic clearing pass or aggressive forecheck, that recovered puck by the opposition can become a shot on net and scoring chance.
But which is worse? That part is subjective – some say offensive zone turnover and others the defensive zone turnover.
I think they are both pretty bad, but in the case of the Leafs, I would be more willing to add a veteran defensive defender than a forward with size, simply because scoring has not been an issue.
In a different case I might say the opposite, but for the Leafs, I’d definitely say the defensive zone lapses are the biggest problem.
s •
One of the bsh guys did a study on o zone finishes when dump and chased were used vs other methods. Dump and chase turned out to be very bad for everything.
I will stand beside him with an axe! @theninjagreg
by theninjagreg on Feb 14, 2012 2:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think
it’s more likely the zone clearing problem… our top line in particular (which plays our biggest minutes at ES) SUCK at clearing their zone… in particular Joffrey Lupul.
I would actually not be upset if we traded Lupul and got decent return.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
it is insane how much time the KBL spends in the defensive zone, where they are absolutely useless.
s •
yeah
and realistically Bozak isn’t that bad, and Kessel is improving. Lupul is the oldest and worst of the three in clearing the zone.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
old habits
die hard and all that jazz.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
to be honest I would have expected Lupul to better, just because he is half decent at maintaining possession once he is IN the offensive zone
s •
that first pass from the defender to lupul along the board either ends up on kessel stick for a nice rush or muffed and turnover again.
I’m talking about once he’s in the offensive zone. Their breakout is either picture perfect and ends in a pretty decent rush, or in a sloppy turnover and another 30 seconds in the defensive zone
s •
They really should be split up. But how can you split them up with those #. If they found a responsible grinding winger for the kessel line, then maybe they drop lupul down a line and mac to the third or out the door
The Kulemin-Bozak-Kessel line has shown promise in the past.
If we could put Lupul with Grabbo and Mac I can see that line doing very well, but hey what do I know.
Also, this may have already been tried a couple weeks back when Kessel and Lupul were split up. Does anyone remember what the lines were?
s •
That line scares me whenever I see someone cycling on them. Kessel and Lupul seem to always be looking to counter attack
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
which
explains their high SH% and scoring rates… it’s pretty logical. They’re leaking out all the time… and do a crappy job of covering their man and supporting their team mates.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
It absolutely does.
Look at the second Habs goal last night, Schenn made a brutal brutal brutal fuckin giveaway and in no way gets off the hook. However, watch Kessel he makes a big loop and is right beside Gionta and glides and looks like he wants to counter attack. I am not blaming Kessel for the goal, but he may have had a chance to prevent it
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
they’re always looking to put the puck forward and get out of the zone quick. Leads to some lazy plays/over passing in our zone.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair
the vote actually is fairly evenly split. By percentages we’re looking at some fairly even numbers.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
There are basically
3 solutions people think are most pressing – Forwards, Goaltending, Coaching… D is the low one on the list? really?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Thats surprising to me as well.
For all my talk about a centre, I think the defensive side is almost as important (it’s just that i’d take, say, Patrice Bergeron / Claude Giroux over Shea Weber if given the choice).
Our defensive group is in pretty bad shape. Losing Gunnarson shouldn’t be the end of the world, but it kind of is for us.
I think
all 3 of those guys are never moving (at least not anytime soon)
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair,
We’ve played SOLID defence since the new year, minus the habs game where absolutely everything was bad
I voted for defense.
I will stand beside him with an axe! @theninjagreg
by theninjagreg on Feb 14, 2012 2:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Greg brady is funny
If I’m Scott Howson, & Burke calls me about Rick Nash, I’m asking for: Lupul, Colborne, Schenn, 2012 R1, 2013 R2.. We good with that?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Burke would laugh so hard he’d fall out of his chair
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
How many leaf fans would just hear RICK NASH and be like I DONT CARE ITS RICK NASH
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
more than half
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
Imagine the call in shows?
“Eh ya this a good trade for the boys you know. Rick Nash is a good Toronto boy and thats what the team needs.”
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
no not
Schenn.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Would you do Schenn for Nash straight up?
Or Schenn + something small (2nd rounder or lower, medium prospect)?
Or Schenn + something big (1st rounder or high end prospect)?
yeah I'd do
Schenn for Nash easily… but I wouldn’t trade that package.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Feb 13, 2012 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t want to part with our first rounder short of getting a young guy that can be part of our core for years to come, a la Bobby Ryan.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
Really? I would think you should jump at that.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
Obviously it would depend on how the Leafs finish the season (ie what pick). I am also someone who places pretty high value on Schenn despite his recent suckage.
s •
I dunno, if the offer was Schenn and the equivalent of Tyler Biggs…I think you take Nash every day of the week.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
Well, the pick won’t be that low for one, and either way I like to keep the prospects cupboard stocked.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
I would do any 3 of those trades
Instantaneously.
I would do Schenn + our 1st rounder which is likely to be somewhere in the what..15-20 range?
Rick Nash is absolutely worth that.
by LeftNutForAStarCenter on Feb 14, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
hahahahahahahha. And if I’m Burke I slam the phone down.
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
Why wouldn’t Howson ask for the sun, moon, and the stars?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
he hopes no one notices because his theories are paper thin
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
Pfffft
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
UPDATE:
1-0 SJ over WSH.
1-0 CAR over MTL.
CURRENT PROGNOSIS:
Everything’s comin’ up Milhouse!
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 13, 2012 8:04 PM EST reply actions
shooting from your own blue line, legitimate anti-caps strategy
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Feb 13, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
He let in a shit goal, lots of goalies have and lots of goalies will. Holtby is a solid goalie prospect
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
I’m mocking how when Goose or Reims do it it means they’re terrible
www.twitter.com/CameronSorley
by CameronSorley on Feb 13, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
it wasn’t very clear
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
apologies
www.twitter.com/CameronSorley
by CameronSorley on Feb 13, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
So
Ruutu is out with an injury… there goes one of those rumoured fwds with size on the market.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I don’t think he will be off the market just yet. Price tag for him will come down though
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
by Killer Sundin on Feb 13, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Hurricanes want to keep him anyway.
I really like what they are doing in Carolina, trying to keep their good players and not tear it down. They’ve got a decent group of young players, and will get another on this year. Staal just needs to rebound a bit.
They also have the makings of a pretty solid ‘checking’ with Nodl – Sutter – Dwyer. If they can add some players, spend a bit of money next year, and Staal rebounds, they could make some noise.
My solution
Get Mats Sundin out of retirement. =P
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.
Scoreboard god smiled on us
MTl & Warsh both lose in reg
Glenn Healy = Human sewage.
Scrivens on a prayer...
by Future_considerations on Feb 13, 2012 10:06 PM EST reply actions
Staal & Kabby
Staal. 6 pts in his last 3 games, 24 pts in his last 19. I think he’s back.
Kabby. -6 in the last 7 games. Ouch.
I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.
by not norm ullman on Feb 13, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
funny thing in the game from Saturday
Brown was coming flying down towards Kaberle, had the chance to put him through the boards like he was doing all night to all other Habs D, but he let up and just guided Kabs into the boards
The Leafs still <3 Kabby
www.twitter.com/CameronSorley
by CameronSorley on Feb 13, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
apparently my marriage is over.
suddenly hockey seems kind of irrelevant.
/debbiedownered
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 13, 2012 10:51 PM EST reply actions
dude that’s terrible news, hope you’re doing alright
by Goosemonster on Feb 13, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
yeah. thanks. i’m ok.
i’m not baiting PPP for a pity party. I’m just venting. cary on.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Feb 13, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
sucks man, been through that. Hope everything works out for you.
by Nigel Cadbury on Feb 14, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Wow, I’m so sorry man. Hope everything is okay
"There is no big lie, no system. The universe is indifferent."- Don Draper
Follow me on Twitter! @Will_Collie
I also have a blog: http://wccollective.blogspot.com/
by Killer Sundin on Feb 13, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
that sucks bro………..hope it works out well for you.
Toronto Maple Leafs: Lupul is Lupul backwards
Officially on Team Re-Sign Grabbo
Twitter
by LeafFan1989 on Feb 13, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, things like that really do put hockey in context.
Hopefully it all works out for you, man.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 14, 2012 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
You know what this means?
PPP PUCK PARTY AND TWEETUP AT VRN’S HOUSE!!!!!1
We’ll even be super nice to Gustavsson for you. We promise.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
I’m sorry to hear that, I hope you’re alright.
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Feb 14, 2012 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
That’s really awful, I’m really sorry. I hope it works out for you in the end.
99% of player salaries are payed out to only 1% of players. #OccupyNHL
I'm a Twitter twat.
CanadianMaple09 is an effective Facebook stalker.
I know the way the Leafs play isnt necessarily Wilsons fault but theres some games where this team just fucking gives up. I dont know if thats coaching or the players but someone has to inject a fighting mentality in this team. They dont seem to push like other teams do when things come down to the wire.
Dat rebuild
Some games they give up, and some games they have all the fight in the world.
Some games they shred teams with their speed, and some teams clog them in the neutral zones.
Some games their goaltending looks Vezina-calibre, and some it looks slightly-better-than-Toskala-bad.
This team is streaky and inconsistent.
TWEET AT ME BRO
DAAAAA BLOG
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Feb 14, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know what it is but the Leafs just cannot beat teams that trap and clog the neutral zone. This may be selection or hindsight bias but it seems the worst games they play are like the game against Montreal, where they just can’t get into the offensive zone. After watching the Leafs game Saturday I watched the flames game live and Calgary could just waltz into Vancouver’s zone. Probably because Vancouver wasn’t trapping. How do you beat a trap team (other than Tampa bay).
I will stand beside him with an axe! @theninjagreg
by theninjagreg on Feb 14, 2012 2:37 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I honestly can't believe how little people voted for defence.
Personally, I wouldn’t be against packaging Lupul and maybe a prospect or pick or something for a good shutdown defender. We have lots of goal scoring prospects that are going to be coming up in the next year or two (Kadri, Frattin, Colborne) that can fill the void, and we could definitely use a shutdown guy to play on our first pairing. Also, Lupul’s numbers are most likely unsustainable after this season.
99% of player salaries are payed out to only 1% of players. #OccupyNHL
I'm a Twitter twat.
CanadianMaple09 is an effective Facebook stalker.
They are unsustainable but: A) No one’s going to give proper value for him (e.g. PPG player value) and B) Burke brought him in specifically because he’s a “proven playoff performer” and he isn’t going to trade him when we’re trying to get into the post-season. Just aint happening.
by Goosemonster on Feb 14, 2012 8:34 AM EST up reply actions
Stempniak wasn't exactly moved for nothing.
The picks gained from Phoenix in return for Stempniak were flipped for picks that turned into David Broll, Petter Granberg, and Daniel Brodin.

by 






























