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How to Value Mikhail Grabovski

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There has been a lot of discussion lately on Mikhail Grabovski, if he is a dominant center, and if he is worth resigning. First of all, let’s look at Grabovski’s career stats:

Grabbo_medium

He is only in his 4th season the NHL. He’s a little older than some players in their 4th season, but even so, it still takes time to get used to the best opponents in the world. I personally think Grabovski’s finally found his niche (last year) and will be able to maintain this level of play for a few years, though I don’t know if he’s got much more improving to do.

Click the Jump to see analysis on the top centers in the NHL, and where Mikhail Grabovski fits in.

Star-divide

To figure out where Mikhail Grabovski fits in relation to other centers in the NHL, I used Hockey Reference to sort players by point per game over the last 2.5 years. I believe that the last three seasons (including this season) are an appropriate window what we are trying to determine. We are not trying to see who has had the best career, or who has been the best in the last decade. We are trying to determine who is the best right now. 2.5 seasons is an appropriate enough window to measure this, in my judgment.

I pulled up this list, found Mikhail Gravoski, and used him as the bottom threshold, though I included a few other players of note, in this regard.

This post will use three sets of criteria to judge the top centers in the league. The first criteria is points per game, which will see who is the most affective at scoring game to game. The second is points per 60, which factors in the ice time of the centers, to determine who is truly the most affective at scoring with the situations they’ve been given. The final is CORSI rel, which will examine relatively how defensively responsible they are.

Points Per Game

Here is the list of Top Centers in the league by Points Per Game. The Point per Game has been calculated over the last 2.5 seasons, strictly by taking the games played and points during that period.

Name GPG APG PPG
1 Sidney Crosby 0.65 0.79 1.44
2 Henrik Sedin 0.28 0.93 1.21
3 Evgeni Malkin 0.46 0.67 1.13
4 Steven Stamkos 0.61 0.52 1.13
5 Nicklas Backstrom 0.32 0.74 1.06
6 Brad Richards 0.34 0.67 1.01
7 Ryan Getzlaf 0.25 0.73 0.98
8 Pavel Datsyuk 0.34 0.64 0.98
9 Joe Thornton 0.25 0.72 0.97
10 Anze Kopitar 0.36 0.6 0.96
11 Jonathan Toews 0.41 0.54 0.95
12 Jason Spezza 0.37 0.55 0.92
13 Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 0.34 0.58 0.92
14 Patrick Marleau 0.47 0.44 0.91
15 Eric Staal 0.36 0.54 0.9
16 Henrik Zetterberg 0.27 0.63 0.9
17 Patrick Sharp 0.38 0.5 0.88
18 Ryan Kesler 0.38 0.49 0.87
19 Mikko Koivu 0.25 0.61 0.86
20 Claude Giroux 0.28 0.57 0.85
21 Vincent Lecavalier 0.35 0.49 0.84
22 John Tavares 0.36 0.47 0.83
23 Mike Ribeiro 0.25 0.58 0.83
24 Paul Statsny 0.27 0.55 0.82
25 Joe Pavelski 0.33 0.48 0.81
26 Derek Roy 0.28 0.51 0.79
27 Andy McDonald 0.31 0.47 0.78
28 Jeff Carter 0.43 0.35 0.78
29 David Krejci 0.21 0.56 0.77
30 Adam Henrique 0.3 0.47 0.77
31 Tomas Plekanec 0.27 0.5 0.77
32 Patrice Bergeron 0.28 0.48 0.76
33 Mike Richards 0.33 0.42 0.75
34 Tim Connolly 0.21 0.52 0.73
35 Matt Duchene 0.32 0.4 0.72
36 Stephen Weiss 0.3 0.42 0.72
37 Mikhail Grabovski 0.31 0.39 0.7
38 Alex Steen 0.31 0.39 0.7
39 David Backes 0.3 0.4 0.7
40 Nik Antropov 0.25 0.44 0.69
41 Logan Couture 0.24 0.44 0.68
42 Travis Zajac 0.23 0.43 0.66
43 Jordan Staal 0.3 0.33 0.63
44 Tyler Ennis 0.24 0.34 0.58

Looking at the PPG, we can expect the results. Over the last 2.5 years, Sidney Crosby has been absolutely dominant, having more Goals than his teammate, Jordan Staal (who is also on the list) has had points, per game. Henrik Sedin has also been dominant, having 0.93 Assists per game, which, on its own, would rank him 10th in the league, assuming he didn’t score once. Joe Thornton has remained strong in this list, placing 9th, though he would likely be in the top 5 if the sample size was expanded by a few years.

Ranking Mikhail Grabovski by PPG, he has scored at exactly a clip of 0.7, the identical rate of Alex Steen and David Backes. Other comparables include Tim Connolly, Matt Duchene, Stephen Weiss, Nik Antropov, and Logan Couture. Of course, Logan Couture and Matt Duchene have improved dramatically over the last season or two. In the same way, however, Grabovski’s third full season is affecting the rates of his 4th (last year) and current season, where he has been much better. Even so, his 0.7 rating is good for 37th in the league out of centers, raking him in the range of #1 and #2. As we suspected, he’s a strong #2 center, or a week #1 center. When you factor in that Crosby & Malkin, Stamkos & Lecavalier, Thornton & Marleau, Zetterberg & Datsyuk, etc. are on the same team, he probably ranks as a low end #1 Center.

Scoring Grabovski by goals per game, however, which would at least factor in the poor player of the leafs during his past seasons, and thus the poor teammates he was forced to play with, shows a ranking of 0.31, good for 22nd in the league. Direct comparables here are Alex Steen and Andy McDonald, which similar clips coming from Nicklas Backstrom, Matt Duchene, Stephen Weiss, David Backes, and Jordan Staal.

Points per 60 minutes.

Below is a list of the top centers by Points per 60 minutes. Rather than looking at points strictly per game, this table factors in the ice time of the player.

Name Points / 60min Trend
09/10 10/11 11/12 Average
1 Sidney Crosby 3.41 3.98 4.31 3.9 +
2 Henrik Sedin 3.96 2.78 2.55 3.096667 -
3 Steven Stamkos 2.56 2.71 2.98 2.75 +
4 Evgeni Malkin 2.62 2.17 3.37 2.72
5 Pavel Datsyuk 2.13 2.72 2.9 2.583333 +
6 Patrice Bergeron 2.23 2.46 2.93 2.54 +
7 Nicklas Backstrom 3.03 2.01 2.21 2.416667
8 Patrick Sharp 2.33 2.31 2.58 2.406667 +
9 Jason Spezza 2.33 2.51 2.35 2.396667
10 Jonathan Toews 2.15 2.37 2.66 2.393333 +
11 David Krecji 1.77 2.76 2.57 2.366667
12 Henrik Zetterberg 2.29 2.41 2.29 2.33
13 Joe Thornton 2.76 1.73 2.39 2.293333 -
14 Anze Kopitar 1.94 2.68 2.16 2.26
15 Andy McDonald 1.85 2.19 2.71 2.25 +
16 Claude Giroux 1.48 2.69 2.5 2.223333
17 Brad Richards 2.57 2.51 1.54 2.206667
18 Joe Pavelski 2.33 2.04 2.13 2.166667
19 Patrick Marleau 2.61 1.97 1.9 2.16 -
20 Mikhail Grabovski 1.96 2.06 2.43 2.15 +
21 Alex Steen 2.11 2.12 2.17 2.133333 +
22 Derek Roy 2.13 2.53 1.74 2.133333
23 David Backes 2.11 2.16 2.09 2.12
24 Logan Couture 1.96 2.18 2.2 2.113333 +
25 Vincent Lecavalier 2.27 1.63 2.4 2.1
26 Mike Riberio 1.7 2.26 2.3 2.086667 +
27 Nik Antropov 2.59 1.53 2.1 2.073333
28 Ryan Getzlaf 2.55 2.31 1.35 2.07 -
29 John Tavares 1.42 2.02 2.65 2.03 +
30 Jordan Staal 2.11 1.84 2.11 2.02
31 Ryan Nugent-Hopkins n/a n/a 2.02 2.02
32 Tim Connolly 2.24 1.65 2.09 1.993333
33 Ryan Kesler 2.29 2 1.68 1.99 -
34 Adam Henrique n/a n/a 1.98 1.98
35 Eric Staal 2.48 1.86 1.6 1.98 -
36 Jeff Carter 1.98 2.48 1.45 1.97
37 Travis Zajac 2.16 1.55 2.16 1.956667
38 Tomas Plekanec 2.07 1.91 1.86 1.946667 -
39 Mikko Koivu 2.09 2.19 1.48 1.92
40 Paul Statsny 2.42 1.83 1.39 1.88 -
41 Tyler Ennis 2.76 1.92 0.89 1.856667 -
42 Matt Duchene 1.69 2.39 1.45 1.843333
43 Stephen Weiss 1.76 1.43 2.05 1.746667
44 Mike Richards 1.45 2.07 1.72 1.746667

The usual suspects still remain atop the list, with Sidney Crosby, Henrik Sedin, Steven Stamkos, and Evgeni Malkin on top. I also included a trend section, however, to indicate the direction players have been headed over the past few years. Henrik Sedin, with his age, has been dropping off. Crosby, Stamkos, and Toews have all been getting better as they get older. Strangely, Datsyuk has been increasing as well, though I would suggest he used to be better probably more than 3 years ago. Other players, such as Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, and Eric Staal are declining, likely as their experience is running out.

Our boy Mikhail Grabovski fairs even better here than he does in the PPG marker. First of all, Grabovski has been increasing every year. Maintaining his level of player this year would place him 7th in the league. As of now, however, he averages a 2.15P/60, placing him right between Patrick Marleau and Alex Steen. Other players within the same range include Joe Pavelski, Derek Roy, David Backes, Logan Couture, and Vincent Lecavalier. His 2.15 average ranks him 20th out of these centers.

Relative CORSI

Gabe Desjardins, who has done much work on CORSI, defines it as follows:

In a nutshell, the Corsi Number is the shot differential while a player was on the ice. This includes not just goals and shots on goal, but also shots that miss the net, and in some formulations, blocked shots. In other words, it’s the differential in the total number of shots directed at the net.

It is thus a useful indicator of who the most defensive players are. That is to say, it indicates which players are able to drive the player against the opposition, without sacrificing chances themselves. One thing that should be said, is that players with high offensive starts will likely have high CORSI, as they are more likely to get a shot starting in the offensive zone, than to sacrifice one. However, over a seasons worth of data, the data will begin to even out, given that lack of line matching in away games, and that even in home games, players will still have to be in the defensive end etc. The CORSI measure shows you the degree to which players limit opposing shots and generate their own shots.

CORSI rel is an even more powerful too, as it takes the CORSI of the team and compares the individual CORSI in relation to that. This means that players on the Islanders are not necessarily negative in CORSI just because they play on a bad team, as it also means that players on Detroit have a positive CORSI just because they play on a good team

The following list contains CORSI rankings over the last three seasons, and the average between them all.

Name CORSI REL
09/10 10/11 11/12 Average
1 Mikhail Grabovski 13.6 21.3 12.7 15.87
2 Henrik Sedin 13.9 11 21.4 15.43
3 Ryan Kesler 11 18.2 15.1 14.77
4 Sidney Crosby 11.4 3.3 29.1 14.60
5 Jonathan Toews 8.8 14.3 13.5 12.20
6 Patrice Bergeron 11.8 11.6 11.6 11.67
7 Ryan Getzlaf 10.7 12.5 10.8 11.33
8 Andy McDonald 3.6 9.2 20.7 11.17
9 Nicklas Backstrom 13.9 12.1 7.4 11.13
10 Pavel Datsyuk 9.9 9.1 13.6 10.87
11 Anze Kopitar 11.2 8.3 13.1 10.87
12 Alex Steen -3.8 15.1 20.6 10.63
13 Joe Pavelski 5.5 11.8 12.9 10.07
14 Patrick Sharp 10.3 5.7 11.9 9.30
15 Eric Staal 6.7 11.3 9.3 9.10
16 Evgeni Malkin -2.5 16.1 13.1 8.90
17 Travis Zajac 11.5 3.7 11.5 8.90
18 Mikko Koivu 12.5 9.9 2.2 8.20
19 David Backes 6.8 7.1 9.5 7.80
20 John Tavares 2.5 9.1 11.3 7.63
21 Logan Couture 0.5 9.6 11.5 7.20
22 Joe Thornton 2.4 1.7 17.3 7.13
23 Henrik Zetterberg 8.2 3.6 8.2 6.67
24 Claude Giroux 2.2 14.1 0 5.43
25 Jordan Staal 7.9 0.3 7.9 5.37
26 Patrick Marleau 7.9 -1 8.2 5.03
27 Paul Statsny 8.4 1.5 4.7 4.87
28 Matt Duchene 4.7 3.6 5.1 4.47
29 Jeff Carter 4.8 7.8 0.5 4.37
30 Ryan Nugent-Hopkins n/a n/a 3.8 3.80
31 Tyler Ennis -1.8 -2.6 14.1 3.23
32 David Krecji 2.5 2.4 4.1 3.00
33 Stephen Weiss 10.6 0.1 -1.7 3.00
34 Jason Spezza -5 5.4 8.3 2.90
35 Vincent Lecavalier 3.9 -0.8 3 2.03
36 Steven Stamkos 1 0.8 3.5 1.77
37 Tim Connolly -2.7 11.2 -3.7 1.60
38 Mike Riberio 3.4 3.4 -3.6 1.07
39 Adam Henrique n/a n/a 1 1.00
40 Derek Roy 4.2 -6.1 4 0.70
41 Nik Antropov 1.6 -6.1 5.9 0.47
42 Brad Richards -1.7 -0.1 -2.2 -1.33
43 Tomas Plekanec -2.3 0.4 -3.2 -1.70
44 Mike Richards 4.6 1.1 -20.2 -4.83

As you can see, out of the top centers in the league, Mikhail Grabovski has the highest average score, largely from having the highest CORSI rel in 2010/2011. Things will change this year, as there is still a limited amount of data. Specifically, with Sidney Crosby, his 2011/2012 data is skewed based on his limitted playing time. Regardless, we have to take the numbers as they are, and Grabovski is both consistently positive, and dominant in this regard, next tohis peers. As would be expected, other good centers are great point producers (Henrik Sedin, Ryan Getzlaf, and Nicklas Backstrom), as well as great defensively (Ryan Kesler, Jonathan Toews, Patrice Bergeron, Pavel Datsyuk).

Conclusion

In conclusion, I believe Mikhail Grabovski to be a fantastic center within the NHL, and definitely worth holding on to. His 0.7PPG over the last three years is good enough to put him within the top 40 centers in the league, with good comparables. His points per 60 minutes ranks him as the 20th best center with regards to offense, and his CORSI rel is the best in the league. When you look at all three equally, you’re looking at a center who is arguably the 20th best in the league.

It might be hard to argue that there are not more than 19 centers better than Grabovski, looking at the caliber of some of the names above. However, with regards to the leafs situation, there is no question that he should be held on to, as opposed to dealt, as he is not only loveable and great for the leafs, but objectively great.

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Comments

Display:

Rec’d for no Tyler Seguin

by jeffgm on Feb 2, 2012 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

His first year was awful so his PPG, CORSI & P60 are not good

by Ben Schnell on Feb 2, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec’d for Statistical-based Grabbo love

by Dr_Furious on Feb 2, 2012 1:34 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Rec’d for science.

I shot a moose once, in upstate New York.

by not norm ullman on Feb 2, 2012 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

Rec’d for pointing out Grabbo leads the league in average Corsi Rel. Also look at dem forearms.

I will stand beside him with an axe!

by theninjagreg on Feb 2, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

crosby
sedin
malkin
stamkos
backstrom
b. richards
getzlaf
datsyuk
thornton
kopitar
toews
spezza
RNH
staal
zetterberg
kesler
koivu
giroux
tavares
lecavalier
stastny
bergeron
mike richards
duchene
couture
seguin
pavelski
krejci

those are 28 centers i would rather have over grabovski, and a few of those guys are number 2 centers
i love him, but he’s nowhere near a number 1 center
if he is a number 1 center, the team hes playing for will not be any good
on an elite team, he is fighting to be the number 2 center, which is what i would LOVE to see him be doing in toronto, as opposed to wondering if hes good enough to be “weak number 1” and whether or not we should re-sign him for that reason

by BOOKOO on Feb 2, 2012 7:48 PM EST reply actions  

and to play bigger devils advocate

I’d throw in huberdeau and grigorenko in that list of centers id rather have, dropping grabo out of the top 30

by BOOKOO on Feb 2, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You would rather have huberdeau and grigorenko?
I sure wouldn’t.
As the post says, we’re talking about who are the best centers right now.
Neither of those players could make the NHL, and they’re not going to hit 60 points in their first years.

by Ben Schnell on Feb 2, 2012 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

neither of those players could make the NHL?

THATS crazy talk
and even though i wouldn’t bank on it, 60 points in their first years wouldn’t surprise me

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Huberdeau was drafted last year, is not in the NHL this year
thus he didn’t make it his 1st year

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t say they could never make the NHL, I meant to say huberdeau couldnt make the NHL.
and I forgot that grigorenko wasnt drafted yet

by Ben Schnell on Feb 5, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I would rather have Hoobadoo but I’m biased.

Can it before I drive this truculence through your faceulence and put you in an ambulance.

by Brunswick Bruiser on Feb 3, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this list of players, though there are some that are definitely arguable:
lecavalier, statsny, pavelski, krejci, koivu? If you look at the stats I posted, grabbo is comparable in p60 and superior defensively. I for the most part agree with you, but I want to stick to the facts.

I think a lot of us undervalue first of all because he wasn’t always as good as he is, and we’ve been in search of a #1 center, which leads to the second reason, that he’s not a marquee name coming into the league at 18

by Ben Schnell on Feb 2, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I do however agree with your logic, and its not debatable that if there 25 guys ahead of him, he’s a poor #1 center and should just be used in a #2 role. of course, you need to find someone to be your #1 in that case. I would rather keep a guy who is a #1-2C than trade him, making the search that much easier.

by Ben Schnell on Feb 2, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

you missed the point

s •

by sportsfan2 on Feb 3, 2012 2:48 AM EST up reply actions  

what is the point?
that he’s a good player?

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

The point is that he’s a great player right now, and while some of those players may used to be good, when you look at the stats, he’s comparable to some in the top 20.

by Ben Schnell on Feb 5, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

duh and woosh
also Lecavalier? really? that contract over grabovski? Crazy talk

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 5:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, a lot of fans prefer name players over better players.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Feb 3, 2012 7:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah this is some of what i’ve been trying to say,
Grabovski isn’t a marquee name, though he’s playing himself into competition with some of them.
Just because he didn’t dominate at 19 doesn’t mean he’s not valuable now

by Ben Schnell on Feb 3, 2012 8:06 AM EST up reply actions  

lecavalier is debatable only because he’s getting old

the two in their prime is no contest!
it has nothing to do with “name players”

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

key word, in their prime
lots of the players you listed are NOT in their prime
you are also failing to account for their contracts

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

the only players listed that aren’t in their prime are thornton, brad richards and lecavalier

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Staal, Stastny, Koivu and Zetterberg are all “past” prime, or appear to be on the downswing of their careers

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, what kind of contract do you expect Grabo to sign this year?

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

4.75 to 5ish for 4 years
which is much better than abominations like the Lecavalier deal

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Just forget that i said Lecavalier

What exactly are you trying to argue here?? That Grabo is a number 1 center?
All i said is there are a lot of centers I would rather have and would like for him to be fighting for the 2nd line role

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I have no idea what you are trying to argue, the article was attempting to asses the value of Grabovski’s next contract, and what we should expect
then you listed off a bunch of other players you would rather have for some reason
While the article quite clearly can hang with the lower end 1st line centers, no one here is implying that he is a true elite 1st line centre or that he should be regarded as one

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

For some reason?? It said in the article he’s top 20
I think he’s closer to top 30

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

except where he is 20th in points per 60 and 1st in CORSI
being in the top 30 still makes him a 1st line centre, you know, because there are only 30 teams

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I said he can be considered a 1st line center on a shitty team!
I don’t want Toronto to be a shitty team!

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

right, because all teams with great 1st line centres are amazing
how does signing grabovski make the leafs a shitty team?

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Where and when did I say not to sign Grabovski?
I said I want him fighting for the 2nd line job

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

you just said that he’d be a 1st line centre on a shitty team
he is the leafs best center

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

And that’s why the leafs aren’t contenders
On someone like Pittsburgh, he’s fighting to be the THIRD line center
I don’t want a mediocre leafs team

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

there are a bunch of reasons the Leafs arnt a contender, an elite center is but one
Pittsburgh is a silly example since they have Malkin and Crosby, arguably the 2 best players in the world

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Staal, Stastny and Koivu are all around the same age as Grabovski.
Mid twenties… aka entering prime years

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

no, they are all at the end of their 20s, aka at the tail end of their prime, all have declining numbers and are not producing at peak any more

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

paul stastny is younger than grabovski
and eric staal was born in the same year

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Stastny and Koivu you can make an argument for, but are you implying that you prefer Grabovski to Staal because he’s passed his prime?

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

did I say that I preferred him?

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It certainly seems like it

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

how so? because I pointed out how you totally missed the point of the article?

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Because you’re telling me he’s passed his prime and makes too much money….

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

he is and he does
but he is still a better hockey player than Grabovski

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

You know that picture of Jackie Chan making the face like WTFFFFF??

Imagine that picture here

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

what is so hard for you to grasp?

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I wanna know why you’re arguing with me!
The article is titled “how to value mikhail grabovski”.
It goes on to say “Is he a dominant center and is he worth re-signing”

I say NO he’s not a dominant center but he’s worth having as a decent second liner, PREFERABLY if he’s fighting for the second line job. (meaning our top 3 centers would be among the best in the league as opposed to now where they are above average at best)
I dont understand what’s so wrong with that!
Teams with average centers rarely win championships!
What are you trying to prove to me???

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

This logic just doesn’t make sense though..
sure, I’d rather have Toews, Crosby, and Nugent Hopkins on this team so that Grabbo could fight for the 3/4 spot, but we’re not getting those players.
He’s never going to have to fight for the 2nd spot, because he’ll always have at least the second spot, and according to the stats I posted, should be in consideration for the first.

by Ben Schnell on Feb 5, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Other teams fans laugh at us leaf fans because of people like you!
Canucks fans have Sedin and Kesler
Sharks have Thornton Marleau and Pavelski
Penguins have Crosby Malkin Staal
Blackhawks have Toews and Sharp
WIngs have Datsyuk Zetterberg

and they look at discussions like this and say “HA, these guys are trying to legitimize Grabovski as a number 1 center”

We’ll never be an elite team with this kind of attitude!

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

what the hell are you on about? They laugh at me because I want to keep one of the top 30 centres in the league? what are you on about now?
He IS a number one center by the numbers, why is this such a hard point for you to understand?
what the hell do other teams and their center/wing combinations have to do with wanting Grabovski?
Why do you think I don’t want a better center?
are you even paying attention to what is being said?
If you wanted to say “I like Grabovski and would like to keep him, but we still have to get a number one center if we want the Leafs to compete for the cup” then say it
don’t slog around the point with some convoluted "but the other teams have this and this!
Oh, and Marleau plays wing most of the time, so does Sharp, Zetterberg plays wing pretty much exclusively
no, if the other fan bases are laughing at anyone here it would be you because you.
so you want your number one center, how do the leafs attain one?
this should be good

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I should’ve just said “Grabovski is a good center and should sign for between 4 and 5 million” and left it at that!

His career high is 58 points and he’s looking at similar stats this year. If you wanna say “he IS a number one center” then fine! to each his own!
We just have different opinions on number 1 centers I guess.

As for how the leafs would acquire one, I don’t know! I’m not the GM.
I know we have the assets for a trade, we might even have him in the system already, who knows!
If Getzlaf rumours are true I’d jump on him in a heartbeat, I don’t care if we overpay

by BOOKOO on Feb 3, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If Getzlaf rumours are true I’d jump on him in a heartbeat, I don’t care if we overpay

But in a cap system you cannot divorce performance from cap hit. That’s also a big factor in Grabovski’s favour (at least this year) when compared to a guy like Staal.

We just have different opinions on number 1 centers I guess.

Yes, yours includes pedigree and ours focuses on performance.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Feb 4, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

You really did miss the point of the article. Other team’s fans can talk about names all they want but what the article showed with facts is that Grabbo’s performance ranks him much higher than the average fan would think.

It’s a good thing you listed centres that we’d prefer the Leafs to have because we were never arguing otherwise.

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by PPP on Feb 4, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

You may be right about me misinterpreting the article, and i may have come across as a grabbo basher, which i am not at all.
I just don’t want to overrate the guy.
He’s a great player but i’m just not comfortable considering him our #1.
That’s the only point I was trying to get across. Would i like him to sign? yes. Do I think he could be replaceable if his contract demands are too high? yes. As much as I hate Glenn Healy, he did make a good point tonite by saying Grabovski would be comparable to Plekanec and his 5 million dollar contract. Anything more than that is too much, whereas someone like Staal or Getzlaf is actually worth the 6 or 7 plus.
Also, I think CORSI is a very overrated statistic much like plus minus. I think for the most part they reflect more on the team than the individual.

by BOOKOO on Feb 5, 2012 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

CORSI does reflect the team, but what I looked at was CORSI rel, which looks at the player in comparison to their team.
There is absolutely no way, in this case, that the team’s performance has a reflection on the score, because they are judged in comparison

by Ben Schnell on Feb 5, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Staal and Getzlaf haven’t really been worth their contract this year though.

Like I said, the contract he is on has to be part of the consideration.

And also, as we said, long-term, the Leafs need to pop someone in above him.

CORSI is miles better than +/- but it is a team element. There’s a reason why Grabbo’s is so good no matter who he plays with.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 5, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

As long as we agree that someone has to be slotted above grabo then im fine!
but you also cant judge getzlaf and staal on this year alone.
Theyve both proven theyre among the dominant players in the league when on their game, but their situation is different this year cause both their teams suck ass.
Either one of those guys on a winning team will be well worth whatever theyre getting paid IMO.

by BOOKOO on Feb 6, 2012 1:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but then you’ve got the whole question about whether they’re actually team-centric pieces or just complementary pieces. I think that at least Staal is, though you can argue his best year came when he got to play with Brindamour, and Getzlaf is playing with Perry and Ryan and is still managing such few points this year? Plus a PP with Selanne, Visnovsky?

by Ben Schnell on Feb 6, 2012 8:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Right now I’d take Grabbo over Zetterberg, Sharp, probably Staal, and Marleau

s •

by sportsfan2 on Feb 4, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

and both make 6.6 million + dollars a year

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 3, 2012 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Good thing we’re talking about right now and not in each players’ theoretical prime.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Feb 4, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

You have no idea what grabbo’s prime will be like.. unless a player is on decline, and grabbo has gotten better each year, you dont know where the prime is. We’re looking at right now, and Lecavalier is not better than grabovski.

by Ben Schnell on Feb 5, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Grabo rarely makes any mistakes on the ice.
There is no part of his game that he really has to work on.
Therefore its really hard to see him being any better than he is now

by BOOKOO on Feb 6, 2012 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

But I agree,
You got me on Lecavalier, I was wrong
Grabo is better than him right now and there’s pretty much no way Lecavalier goes back to playing like he did in his prime
So you can take him off my list

by BOOKOO on Feb 6, 2012 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.
I know what you mean about Grabbo, his defensive game is flawless right now, which is demonstrated by the highest corsi rel in the league,
He may increase his ppg and points/60 though, as he has every year,
No idea where the threshold is on that

by Ben Schnell on Feb 6, 2012 8:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Although I agree with the desire to slot someone better in above him.

Also, please use capitals and apostrophes. Makes it easier to read comments. Thanks in advance.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Feb 3, 2012 7:07 AM EST up reply actions  

And finally, on an elite team he wouldn’t be fighting to be a number two at all. He’d have that role.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Feb 3, 2012 7:07 AM EST up reply actions  

PPP just Burtch’d up the comments.

99% of player salaries are payed out to only 1% of players. #OccupyNHL
I'm a Twitter twat.
CanadianMaple09 is an effective Facebook stalker.

by MLS on Feb 3, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Burtch multi-replies in serial (replying to himself), PPP does it in parallel (many replies to the same message).

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Feb 3, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I was close.

99% of player salaries are payed out to only 1% of players. #OccupyNHL
I'm a Twitter twat.
CanadianMaple09 is an effective Facebook stalker.

by MLS on Feb 3, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

He can fly!

At least it's not Lebda.

by Nifty Mittens on Feb 3, 2012 7:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I love the look an Mac’s face.

Yeah I just did that. That puck in the back of the net? All me. SUCK IT MARIO! heh heh heh

by JohnerstonRex on Feb 3, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Who says the lower bowl is full of corporate stiffs? Look at those genuine expressions of joy on those folk!!!

by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Feb 3, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Sign him up!

I always have been under the impression he would be traded so I never allowed myself to get too attached (like the lobsters I once named only to see them boiled for dinner), but I want Grabovski on the team. When he wakes up, he just makes the second line so much better. It is the kind of player the Leafs need behind the Kessel line.

Yeah, yeah, blah blah #1C. As it has been said, Grabbo won’t get us that and if he does, there is a hole in the second line (particulary because I don’t think Connolly will be around for long). Keep Grabbo. Someone(s) will be on the way out so they’ll find space to sign him. Think he’s probably looking for length and I’m not horribly opposed to giving it to him in a diminishing contract.

So, apparently I can now be followed.. but no stalking. @alsonamedphil

by Learn2Leaf on Feb 3, 2012 7:58 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Here’s the thing though: is it a good idea to spend ~$5 million on a #2 C? Don’t get me wrong, I love Grabbo, but I’m not sure it’s the wisest idea to spend that much money on a 2nd line guy, even despite the stats above.

99% of player salaries are payed out to only 1% of players. #OccupyNHL
I'm a Twitter twat.
CanadianMaple09 is an effective Facebook stalker.

by MLS on Feb 3, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

More sense than it does to pay four defenders the $18 million or so. I don’t know why a Tim Connolly style contract, albeit probably for longer, is such a terrible idea to people, particularly for the player that drives the whole line. Take Grabovski out of the team and it is a one line team. He’s worth it and a lot of second line centers are ending up with $4-5 million. Some would cite the diminishing returns idea, but I think Grabovski brings more to the table that just points and will have 3-4 very good years up-coming (if you get beyond the probably slow starts). He likes playing here, seems to have positive effects on linemates, I can’t justify just throwing that away because you want to save a million a year or so.

All that said, if he wants a huge raise beyond the $5mil mark, yeah, I won’t be surprise to see him dealt.

So, apparently I can now be followed.. but no stalking. @alsonamedphil

by Learn2Leaf on Feb 3, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I see it has signing the best #2C in the league for $4-5 million..

Which I would be happy with

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by Gebx on Feb 3, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He’s not a #1C but he is an excellent #2C and I’m very happy with that. I’d love to keep him on the team, not only for the offense he generates but also for his ability to play against top competition.

by Goosemonster on Feb 3, 2012 8:16 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

yeah, he’s a #1C about in the same way that Riberio, Pavelski, Roy, McDonald, Plekanec, Steen, Weiss are #1Cs. If you want to be strict about it, there are probably only about 20 #1Cs in the league, and then a few young guys who project to be #1Cs. Grabbo and co are 1B or 2A centers

by Ben Schnell on Feb 3, 2012 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes. Pay Grabovski what it takes. Our true need is #1 centre, but we don’t make headway by gutting one line to enhance another. Cap is going to be 64 million bucks next year, I have a huge problem with getting rid of a guy hat effectivley shut down Malkin for 119 minutes and 54 seconds, Tavares for pretty much two games while paying a guy like Connolly big bucks and barely noticing anything he does on the ice.

Time for MLSE to show us that they are willing to spend big in order to make this team great. If we can’t trade them, move high priced contracts to the Marlies if that’s what it takes to keep this guy. And I don’t just mean Komisarek. Lombardi, Connolly and others are also overpaid in relation to the positions they play on the team.

Offizielles Mitglied des MĂĽller / Holzer Fan-Clubs. Ich fordere mehr Deutsche in diesem Team ....... wir brauchen Greiss.

by Alspicer on Feb 3, 2012 8:56 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

If we can move some salary out (either Lombardi or komisarek) I’d sign grabbo to a 4 yr 4.25 in a heartbeat-if he would take it.

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Feb 3, 2012 9:06 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Is that your limit though? Would you not pay more?

by Ben Schnell on Feb 3, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

4 year deal – $4.5 mill cap hit

5.0 first year
5.5 2nd year
4.5 3rd year
3.0 4th year

That 4th year, if he’s not producing, they can trade him to a floor cap team looking to shave off some salary but stay at the cap mininum.

Also keep in mind that in 4 years a $4.5 million cap might be the standard salary for 3rd liners

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by Gebx on Feb 3, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps a bit more – 4.5-4.75

I am more worried about the term – I dont want to have him locked up past 4 years, 5 years tops. I dont want to have forwards nearing their mid 30’s under contract.

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Feb 3, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

a team might appreciate lombardi, butttttttt i feel like komisarek has been mostly a liability on the leafs. >fog-horn<

by magecanuck on Feb 3, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

grabbo

it’s funny how stats and lists and numbers paints one picture, but if you’ve watched this guy play on the ice, you know that he can be a total game-changer (in a positive way) and team-confidence booster. i’d MUCH rather have grabbo than several names ‘higher up’ on the lists.

by magecanuck on Feb 3, 2012 10:20 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

even living in Arizona....

i watch every single Leafs game, and night after night, he is the hardest working man on the ice. too bad there are no stats to quantify that!
Losing him would be a HUGE mistake! I for one say pay the man!

"i'm not inclined to resign to maturity"...PSYCH theme

by $#%@ eli and his daddy on Feb 4, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

If Burkie trades Grabbo i will destroy every pineapple at my nearby Grocery store

Glenn Healy = Human sewage.
Scrivens on a prayer...

by Future_considerations on Feb 3, 2012 10:46 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Fans should buy pineapples and send them to Burke’s office!!

Proud Members of:
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by Gebx on Feb 3, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'd be interested to see

What the totals for each category look like with weightings by year. In a pool we run, when preparing for a draft we look at the the last three years but with higher significance placed on those that are more recent.

by KiwiLeaf on Feb 3, 2012 4:41 PM EST reply actions  

That would be an interesting adjustment.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 4, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Is any of this adjusted for competition?

Opposing coaches don’t tend to throw their top pair at Grabovski like they do at other top tier centers around the league. Granted, I am a huge Grabovski fan and am all for re-signing him, as I think he is underrated to an extent, but it seems as though some of these players would have had tougher matchups than Grabovski has had.

Regardless, nice article, and I am new here so I’m too familiar with CORSI at this point in time.

If you want to say dumb things, you can't get mad when I call you dumb.

by dudedudedude on Feb 4, 2012 2:49 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Actually

Last year they did throw their best at Grabovski. This year I would expect they haven’t because of Kessel and Lupul’s start but some of those stats would be adjusted for competition like CORSI REL.

Good question though.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 4, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll look into it and try to see if I can add to the post

by Ben Schnell on Feb 5, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

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